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“I don't know the numbers”: a math puzzle

alexanderell.is

71–80 of 119 posts

Re: “I don't know the numbers”: a math puzzle

#71
post #70
post #8

That was a fun puzzle. I have another one that is math puzzle: > You are given two eggs, and access to a 100-storey tower. Both eggs are identical. The aim is to find out the highest floor from which an egg will not break when dropped out of a window from that floor. If an egg is dropped and does not break, it is undamaged and can be dropped again. However, once an egg is broken, that’s it for that egg. > If an egg b…

> The aim is to find out the highest floor from which an egg will not break when dropped out of a window from that floor. (emphasis added) The egg doesn't break when dropped out of the window (i.e., instantaneously). It potentially breaks when it hits the floor after a time delay t. So, the answer is 100 and 0 trials. ps: This is a joke. Don't take it too seriously.

[deleted]

Re: “I don't know the numbers”: a math puzzle

#72
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

plus, there's a cost to the parent in making the egg shell arbitrarily drop-proof, so there's a balance of resources required to survive drop versus genetic benefit of surviving the drop

Nature doesn’t chase the better option. It selects out the options that aren’t good enough to survive.

Nature doesn’t chase anything. Things happen.

Arguably surviving may happen less often for the shock-proof egg than for the egg that is better in some alternative aspect (including quantity).

(Maybe the hard egg has other advantages though. Could also be used to produce a better skeleton.)

Re: “I don't know the numbers”: a math puzzle

#73
post #3

Bonus meta-puzzle: the puzzle as stated is actually unsolvable. Both Sandy and Peter have to know something that the puzzle implies but does not actually stipulate that they know. What is it?

That the other person is following the same system as them to decide whether they "know the numbers". It would be super easy for one of them to say they don't know for some other reason, in which the others' reasoning would be false.

This is what I thought. Two unstated (but implied) parts of the puzzle are that they can’t tell each other the numbers outright, and that they can only share information in yes/no format. But since they have clearly already agreed on a system beforehand, they could have also encoded the digits in binary or something.

So each person could have been sharing one binary digit of their number with each round. Or they might have used a completely different encoding. We simply cannot know.

Re: “I don't know the numbers”: a math puzzle

#74
post #67
post #8

That was a fun puzzle. I have another one that is math puzzle: > You are given two eggs, and access to a 100-storey tower. Both eggs are identical. The aim is to find out the highest floor from which an egg will not break when dropped out of a window from that floor. If an egg is dropped and does not break, it is undamaged and can be dropped again. However, once an egg is broken, that’s it for that egg. > If an egg b…

I'm not too math-y, but this did capture my sense of wonder. However, it was short lived since now I know it takes "14 drops" maximum, but not the solution - "which floors should I use the 14 drops on though?" Maybe I'd be intrigued enough to try and follow the math if that was added in :)

First the 14th floor, then the (14 + 13 =) 27th floor, and so on.

Re: “I don't know the numbers”: a math puzzle

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not one of the downvoters but I suspect he’s being downvoted for an inability (or refusal) to think in hypotheticals for the sake of an interesting problem. It gives the impression of someone who so dislikes thought exercises or is too insecure about their ability to solve them that they prefer to ruin them with silly objections about practicality.

No, what I think he is highlighting is how people not interested in math approach a problem like this. I asked my girl friend this question on the way home from our Mother's Day dinner, and she had a very similar statement. It says something about how mathematicians could improve on their analogies, not whether he is interested in solving a math problem. I found it insightful even if it was not directly tied to the "…

They're the same picture.

Re: “I don't know the numbers”: a math puzzle

#76

This problem is a variation of this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_and_Product_Puzzle , sometimes called “The Impossible Puzzle”

Ooohh, I didn't know this name for it, thanks. I somehow came across it as The Sultan's Riddle on the internet:

https://explainextended.com/2016/12/31/happy-new-year-8/

I prefer this less sterile framing of it. It was the most fun that I ever had with a puzzle, so to anyone scrolling around on this page, I would recommend not jumping straight to the solution :)

Re: “I don't know the numbers”: a math puzzle

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

The puzzle is a good example of pseudocontext: "Instead of giving students realistic situations that they could analyze, textbook authors began to fill books with make-believe contexts – contexts that students were meant to believe but for which they should not use any of their real-world knowledge."[0] I think for a math puzzle that people choose to do for fun, pseudocontext is fine. We can suspend our disbelief and…

I'm not convinced by the pseudocontext critique.

For one, I think the egg experiment is already sufficiently fantastical and its rules follow logically.

Ignoring common sense reasoning is an important skill. We need rigorous answers where they are available, and the common sense answer is almost always very wrong.

I still agree that school textbooks take this much too far in many cases, but this riddle is fine.

Re: “I don't know the numbers”: a math puzzle

#78
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On August 22, 1994, David Donoghue threw an egg out of a helicopter onto a golf course in the UK, from a height of 213 meters (700 feet). He now has the record for the longest egg drop without breaking in the world (all without an outside structure for added protection!). https://www.scienceworld.ca/resource/egg-drop/ Eggs are evolutionarily designed to survive falling out of nests and perches. You assume that the eg…

> Eggs are evolutionarily designed to survive falling out of nests and perches. I wonder about this. Realistically, what fate awaits the egg that dropped from the nest in the tree branch, even if it survives the fall?

I wonder about that, too, and Google gives me lots of items that seem to debunk that, for example https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318263505_Avian_egg..., which to my amateur eye seems a rather recent and extensive study. It starts with

“Hypotheses proposed for the adaptive function of egg shape typically invoke a decrease in egg loss for cliff-nesting birds laying conical eggs that roll in a tight circle; an increase in incubation efficiency when egg shape is associated with the number of eggs in a clutch; or other advantages related to strength, diet, and development. For example, spherical eggs might be advantageous because the sphere is uniformly strong and would be robust to incidental damage in the nest.

Spherical eggs, with their minimal surface-area-to-volume ratio, also require the least amount of shell material for a given volume and possibly optimize gas exchange by providing a large surface area for pores. In contrast, conical eggs may be beneficial because they can accommodate an increased concentration of pores at the blunt end, creating a specialized respiratory site for accelerated neural development in precocial birds. Moreover, conical eggs may protect the blunt end (from which chicks usually hatch) from debris contamination or, in colonial breeders, increase resistance to impacts because a larger proportion of the eggshell is in contact with the substrate. Finally, it has also been proposed that adaptations for flight influence egg shape indirectly through the morphology of the pelvis, abdomen, or oviduct.”

and concludes

“Our macroevolutionary analyses suggest that birds adapted for high-powered flight may maximize egg size by increasing egg asymmetry and/or ellipticity, while maintaining a streamlined body plan”

It doesn’t even mention “better protection against drops”.

Re: “I don't know the numbers”: a math puzzle

#79

A similar (simpler) well known puzzle > A census taker approaches a woman leaning on her gate and asks about her children. She says, "I have three children and the product of their ages is seventy–two. The sum of their ages is the number on this gate." The census taker does some calculation and claims not to have enough information. The woman enters her house, but before slamming the door tells the census taker, "I h…

Hmm. I don't like how "I have an eldest child" is used to imply "therefore my second-oldest child can't have the same age [when rounded down to a year number]". As the article says: "although one could be a few minutes or around 9 to 12 months older". I could imagine parents objecting to the claim that one twin is older than the other (or even saying they didn't keep track of which was born first); but a child having been born 10 months before another is something I'd expect parents to remember, and I don't think it would be weird in that case to call the older one the "eldest".

Re: “I don't know the numbers”: a math puzzle

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not one of the downvoters but I suspect he’s being downvoted for an inability (or refusal) to think in hypotheticals for the sake of an interesting problem. It gives the impression of someone who so dislikes thought exercises or is too insecure about their ability to solve them that they prefer to ruin them with silly objections about practicality.

No, what I think he is highlighting is how people not interested in math approach a problem like this. I asked my girl friend this question on the way home from our Mother's Day dinner, and she had a very similar statement. It says something about how mathematicians could improve on their analogies, not whether he is interested in solving a math problem. I found it insightful even if it was not directly tied to the "…

One's disinterest or inability to do math has no bearing on the quality of a math problem.
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