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Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

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Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#71

Post by speeder »

dahfizz wrote: post #46
kumarsw wrote: post #28

Semi-related, but last night I watched City Beautiful's video on YT [1] that explains the troubled relationship between poor fire management practices in the western USA and poor development practices - meaning intermingling of houses and forest so controlled burns become impossible. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJiepXtXRX8

I think forestry management is only a part of the story. New England has houses intermingled with forest, and we make very limited use of controlled burns. Yet, we don't have forest fires like the west coast. There are two big reasons for this: 1) It rains here. The forest floor is perpetually damp, which makes the risk of a fire starting and spreading much lower. 2) We have mature, native forests. The invasive Eucal…

Wait, seirously? People are growing Eucalyptus in a desert?

That is one of the most mind boggling stupidity thing I ever heard of! It is just insane and suicidal to do that!

Eucalyptus trees have 60 meter long roots, and use water at absurd amounts! In my country people only have those in places that rain a lot and have a ton of groundwater!

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#72

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

t-3 wrote: post #25
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those that lived in the area throughout that time (like my own ancestors) left almost no history for obvious reasons, Humans have lived in the basin where I live for at least 4000 years, and many parts of it are filled with thousands of bits of their pottery as evidence of their presence. I suspect that the Tewa/Pueblo people in general would be a little troubled by the idea that they "left almost no history" behin…

Artifacts are not history, they are items. The names, languages, and cultures of many native groups are completely unknown due to genocide and forced integration. I said that they lacked the trappings of what present-day humans think of as civilization, not that they didn't exist or have civilization, which I know they did - but they died out due to drought. Much of the time, they lacked resources for widespread acce…

> The names, languages, and cultures of many native groups are completely unknown due to genocide and forced integration.

Now that I understand what you're referring to, sure, absolutely. A apologize for not getting your point there immediately, since it now seems so obvious.

The Chihuahan and Sonoran deserts are certainly unforgiving landscapes for human settlement, even more so without access to groundwater. But they don't represent the full range of landscapes and ecosystems of the "desert southwest" - the northern half of both what is now AZ and NM is still relatively dry compared to areas east of the 100th meridian, but has lots more opportunities for water-requiring civilization-al stuff (especially along valleys like the Rio Grande).

Places like Bandelier and Gila show evidence of sedentary farming that lasted for (at least) hundreds of years. Yes, this is a different ecosystem and climate from the desert areas described in the article you linked to, but just as much a part of the human history of this part of the world.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#73

Post by maxerickson »

yalogin wrote: post #56
exabrial wrote: post #41

Here's a novel idea: Don't live in the desert. Don't grow baby spinach in the desert. Let water prices rise to the extremes they need to discourage people from doing stupid stuff with essentially free water.

Who is going to tell middle California that they need to pay a lot higher to grow crops? The politicians sure won’t. The government is already an enemy in those parts.

If they already hate the government, making them hate the government some more doesn't seem like a problem.

Figuring out what is equitable and carrying it out is the hard part, the political consequences of pissing some people off shouldn't really matter.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#74

Post by CapricornNoble »

danaris wrote: post #37
dahfizz wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't forsee a transcontinental water pipe going over well. I, for one, refuse to subsidize people who want to live in a dessert with my own water table. People should live in areas that can support human life.

While I think there should absolutely be limits of some kind, if the water need in places like California could be spread out over the water table of, say, everything else west of the Mississippi, I imagine it could make a big difference to the water-poor places without running the risk of depleting the water-rich places enough for anyone to even notice. Of course, that's assuming that such a pipeline network would b…

The nuclear power + desalination plant combo seems like a no-brainer to me in particular. Even if it meant sticking them in Oregon or Washington (for reduced seismic risk) and piping the fresh water down to Cali.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#75

Post by loeg »

api wrote: post #35
DannyBee wrote: post #18

It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…

Isn't there a third option that involves building serious infrastructure to pipe water down from the Northwest? Of course you can't build things in America anymore so that's probably off the table.

No, WA doesn’t have a surplus.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#76

Post by eldaisfish »

tejohnso wrote: post #57
DannyBee wrote: post #18

It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…

> It is politically untenable to fix this I believe this statement is applicable to the climate crisis in general. Recent reviews of 2015 Paris agreement progress indicate abysmal performance. We've been using resources in such a way that we don't have to consider their true costs, and we've been doing so for generations. I don't think we'll see very significant change until it is forced upon us. We'll then make reac…

Personally, what i find aggravating is the insistence of many that consumption is the answer. Electric vehicles and their associated manufacturing inputs combined with power grid upgrades will be the solution.

No.

The solution is to work together as a tribe, not as individuals. Instead of personal electric vehicles, we should be electrifying logistics and improving public transit.

Sadly, those who will pay the price are those least able to do anything to fix the situation.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#77

Post by bluetidepro »

me_me_mu_mu wrote: post #69

As a California resident I’m slowly mentally preparing myself to gtfo this state. Not only are the politics stupid af here, so are the people. Ultimately, they elect the politicians into power. It’s sad and pathetic watching the populace make poor decisions. As soon as it becomes untenable to live here I’m out. The politicians have take advantage of people who are stretched to the max as it is to swoon them with word…

> Not only are the politics stupid af here, so are the people.

Well... I hate to be the one to tell you this, but that's 99% of America. You aren't ever going to escape that.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#78

Post by AndrewUnmuted »

onphonenow wrote: post #43
DannyBee wrote: post #18

It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…

Yep. You can look at this from an economics standpoint as well. We have run out of FREE water. If all water use in CA cost anywhere close to residential water rates ($8 / 100 cubic feet) there would be no shortage. Even a small tax of $0.01 per gallon would be a start in this space. We have exploded population and if you look at water projects (that actually deal with supply) have not done the same over 50 years or w…

> in a desert

Why do so many people choose to live in a desert? It makes very little economic sense. Feels like it will be destined for failure no matter what silicon valley tries to pay its grunts.

Any expectation of having enough water for such a low price is laughably absurd. The population of this state is literally asking for these conditions - they are choosing to live there.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#79

Post by deaddodo »

DannyBee wrote: post #18

It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…

> Meanwhile, they continue to push nonsense to help. The amount of water used by residences doing "outdoor watering" is miniscule. Agriculture is over 80% of the water use in california. If they were going to completely run out of water in a week, and all outdoor watering by residences would stop, it would buy you less than a day.

This is definitely true and something I try to point out to people all the time. The California Water Plan limits residential usage to 10% and it has never utilized more than its allocation (usually closer to 1/4-1/3 of that). So, if every person in every residence and every municipal service were to turn their water usage off for the entire year, it would lower the entire load by about 3-5%.

Meanwhile Ag, industrial and commercial services (water bottling and its ilk) continue to surpass their allocation and continually diminish aquifers and reservoirs, year over year. The whole "Save water, we're in a drought" rhetoric is (generally) a political move from those industries to deflect blame, guilt and responsibility on the populace.

This may not be true for every state, but it most assuredly is the case for California.

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