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Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

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Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#71

Post by jtbayly »

orzig wrote: post #48
sevensor wrote: post #17

This looks like the same phenomenon as the crisis in staffing nurses that was discussed here the other day. Careerist, indifferent management giving the people on the front line inadequate resources and then blaming them when things start to look shabby, or when someone dies. Scapegoating the people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, who are tired, inadequately trained, and inured to a climate of normaliz…

I know much more about healthcare than the Navy, but it’s notable that they both have rigid stratification between roles. I could imagine that hampering operational feedback loops in normal times, and strategic feedback loops given the labor supply/demand situation in these extraordinary times.

> in these extraordinary times.

What in the world is that supposed to mean? I've been hearing that for years now, and I have not the foggiest idea of what we're even talking about.

Nothing is different. What is extraordinary?

Edit to add: If these times are extraordinary, then that is a valid excuse for rust and a lot of other problems.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#72

Post by serenitylater »

Victerius wrote: post #13
mysterydip wrote: post #6

> "An AKE like the Shepard should have 129 crewmembers in perfect conditions but they are now running at roughly 80% because of manning problems,” said another MSC officer. “About 20 in the deck department can be assigned to rust prevent duty. However, that crew is also assigned to Underway Replenishment duties. Three Unreps could easily eat away an entire day. When we return to port can we OSPHO? No. Can I send a cr…

Manning problems have existed for a decade, if not more. The Navy holds the sad record of being the worst managed branch of service. Steep budget cuts in the 1990s and again during sequestration have had severe effects that the Navy hasn't yet recovered from. But I don't know whether that's the cause of the problem. The Navy is an especially unique branch given that it's the only service that revolves around a relati…

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Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#74

Post by maxerickson »

dghughes wrote: post #65
1970-01-01 wrote: post #25

Rust-free? How over budget should we go trying to make an all-aluminum and carbon fiber carrier? Is fiberglass ok or are we planning on making submarines too?

The all-aluminum Independence Class ships barely lasted 10 years before corrosion and other design problem meant all three had to be scrapped. It's too bad since I liked the concept and the new technology being tested out on the ships. There was even speculation one of the ships would have the first working rail gun installed.

Someone should put together a list of the significant operational successes of the LCS fleet.

Could have bought a lot of paint.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#75

Post by School-Cotton »

Issaclabs wrote: post #44
1970-01-01 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chief of Naval Operations seems to care quite a lot. He commands a fairly large amount of respect in the entire world.

If I were to ask 10,000 people selected randomly from outside the US. What percentage do you think would be able to name the naval commander of the US? I'd bet it's very close to zero.

It’d be very close to zero in the US too.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#76

Post by ethbr0 »

bell-cot wrote: post #64

From vague memory - didn't the USN have to more-or-less write off some major warships in the past decade or few, because the contractor who built them did so to "fresh water only" spec's - then weaseled, lawyered, and lobbied his way out of responsibility for the ships being utterly unfit for purpose?

I don't think so? The only major warships the Navy operates are carriers (Nimitz, Ford), amphibious assault ships (Wasp, America), cruisers (Ticonderoga, the last of which was commissioned in 1994), and destroyers (Arleigh Burke, forthcoming DDGX). Ignoring the LCSs as a complete cluster#_$&.

Maybe you're thinking of the Spearhead-class EPFs [0] and the issue with high sea states? But those were designed from the ground up to be cheap ($180M each) and "good enough" for sealift and harbor basing missions.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearhead-class_expeditionar...

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#77

Post by geogra4 »

chromatin wrote: post #70
orzig wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know much more about healthcare than the Navy, but it’s notable that they both have rigid stratification between roles. I could imagine that hampering operational feedback loops in normal times, and strategic feedback loops given the labor supply/demand situation in these extraordinary times.

At least in healthcare, I doubt this is a major causative factor (presuming when you say roles you mean physicians and nurses) -- the physicians are extremely supportive of the nurses, and their demands for more pay and better conditions in all the healthcare settings I've worked. The real problem is the unaccountable bureaucratic management, which are neither physicians nor nurses, and the numbers of which continue…

I tend to agree with the parent post about the extreme rigidness though causing issues. My wife is an Occupational Therapist and in some states she can supervise showering and some states only nurses can. Some states she can initiate cases and some states she can't.

There are too many micro-specialties and not enough crossover. Imagine if once you were a frontend dev you would have to go back to school for 2 years full time to be legally allowed to do ui design of a button even though there is a lot of crossover and knowledge sharing between roles.

This definitely causes shortages and issues when the demand naturally rises and falls for various Healthcare disciplines.

I'm not saying formal education isn't important but there could be a much more fluid crossover between various allied health disciplines than their is currently.

Maybe more transition programs or seeing individual billing codes for Medicare attached to education modules

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#79

Post by [deleted] »

Victerius wrote: post #13
mysterydip wrote: post #6

> "An AKE like the Shepard should have 129 crewmembers in perfect conditions but they are now running at roughly 80% because of manning problems,” said another MSC officer. “About 20 in the deck department can be assigned to rust prevent duty. However, that crew is also assigned to Underway Replenishment duties. Three Unreps could easily eat away an entire day. When we return to port can we OSPHO? No. Can I send a cr…

Manning problems have existed for a decade, if not more. The Navy holds the sad record of being the worst managed branch of service. Steep budget cuts in the 1990s and again during sequestration have had severe effects that the Navy hasn't yet recovered from. But I don't know whether that's the cause of the problem. The Navy is an especially unique branch given that it's the only service that revolves around a relati…

[deleted]

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#80

Post by smiley1437 »

Victerius wrote: post #7

The Navy builds its ships with steel, and the grades of steel used in the construction can experience rust. Solutions: Switch to 100% stainless steel. Stainless steel is an alloy and contains a minimum of 11% chromium. This allows the formation of a protective film of chromium oxide which acts as a shield against rust. The protective film will re-form if damaged. Corrosion resistance can be further enhanced with the…

> Use a weathering steel, also known as “COR-TEN” steel which contains up to 21% of alloying elements such as chromium, copper, nickel, and phosphorous. The alloys form a protective rust patina which reduces the corrosion rate with time. COR-TEN steel tends to be cheaper than stainless steel.

If the point is for the ship to look 'not-rusty', Cor-Ten is probably about as far from that goal as one can get

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