Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 117 posts

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#71

Post by nhebb »

Eeko wrote: post #66
nhebb wrote: post #60

It's funny that the article starts off criticizing standardized testing but immediately turns to international standardized test results (PISA) as the foundation for the rest of the article. It could well be that Finland has a better educational system, but - playing devil's advocate here - how do we know that it's not just (inadvertently) optimized for the PISA?

Well, the PISA testing started at 2000 and the current Finnish system was established back in the 1970's. Finland has always been pretty much at the top of the class with PISA studies. The fame came mostly as a shock for the nation, as we have always had pretty common lil'brother & grass-is-greener attitudes towards the rest of the world. Also: the stuff measured by PISA (Math, sciences & reading) is only around 50%…

Just to be clear, I am not a proponent of standardized-test-based curricula. I just thought it was odd that they used an international standardized test as a basis for criticizing US standardized tests.

The curricula you linked to looks similar to the curricula that my children's schools use. The difference is in how the subjects are taught. I'm old enough to have gone to school before standardized testing was widespread in the US, and since my children go to school near where I grew up, I can compare the quality of education between then and now. The reading and writing requirements today (including vocabulary and grammar), are much weaker than I was exposed to. They rarely even read full books and do in depth reports. Instead, they simply read excerpts from anthologies and write in-class paragraphs. It's pretty sad, because writing teaches you a lot about how to think.

In all, I would say the science curriculum is broader and better. I was dismayed to learn that proofs are no longer taught in math, and I think that may be a result of the test-driven mentality of education.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#72

Post by sjwright »

SNK wrote: post #59

"Finnish educators were astonished ... made no sense to them... surprised ... did not understand the idea ... can’t understand ... don’t make sense to them. Nor do they understand ...." Ignorance and stupidity are nothing to be proud of. Disagreeing with us is one thing - they could be right. Willful disingenuous bug-eyed goggling is something else altogether.

Is the Finnish educators' ignorance of the American education system any more a sign of "ignorance and stupidity" than American educators' almost certain ignorance of the Finnish education system?

Given that Finnish educators appear to be doing a better job, I'd argue the latter is the more "ignorant and stupid".

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#73

Post by Eeko »

temphn wrote: post #8

Finland's schools are great because they are full of Finns, in the same way that schools with many Finns in the US do very well. Hong Kong and Singapore's schools are great because they are full of Chinese, in the same way that schools with many Chinese in the US do very well, even in poor neighborhoods: http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/16/local/me-lincoln16 To begin with, the eight students agreed on a few gener…

> It is thus not likely to be the schools. It is more likely to be culture or (more controversially) genetics.

But finns are less smart than say, Asia, most of Europe and North Korea :( (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations)

There is likely a multitude of reasons. And yes, stuff like ethnic diversity do cause problems. But that shit is not unsolveable.

In Finland, there are schools & classrooms with very diverse ethnical backgrounds and yes, they rank worse than your average, homogenous classrooms. But the system still manages to achieve significant improvement with the individuals, even though the end-results are sub-average. And we are talking about students that often do not even know any local languages (or English, Swedish, German or French, which are in some rare cases available as teaching languages) and start their primary education years later than their Finnish peers.

The shit is, you don't need perfection. You need improvement. Sure, it's theoretically possible that genetics or culture gives you edge on some stuff, but it is about as likely that they don't. In any way, that stance is incredibly counterproductive against any kind of thinkable improvement. It is also pretty bloody likely, that Finns and Chinese have figured out something right and there are lessons to be learned.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#74

Post by LeafStorm »

jaredmck wrote: post #26
Androsynth wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, but its a good way to gate on intelligence

In the US, getting a master's in education probably says more negative than positive things about your intelligence - there are a ton of degree farms handing out paper.

That's why you check what school the degree is from.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#75

Post by thy »

mushishi wrote: post #30

As a Finn, I restrain myself comparing us to others but I just want to say that most schools here are not well suited for non-superficial learning. I would hope the future brings a system that is driven by the need of individual pupil and by her potential and interests rather than giving equivalent, non-inspiring curriculum for all. Also, learning should have more meaningfulness in it; something along the lines of wh…

Brazil here, I always have been trying to get excited with subjects that i learn. Thats when it gets easier to be an autodidact.

So, my way to get things cool its to visualize them. from my entire hight school i've been doing that, for example: http://wonderfl.net/c/o5vy http://wonderfl.net/c/OskM http://wonderfl.net/c/veRP http://wonderfl.net/c/oD09 http://wonderfl.net/c/kkNQ yet, still doing that on computer college http://wonderfl.net/c/jkiG

on hight school days, i even got an friend on C++ who used to compete with me. not really compete, because we would won nothing for it. instead, we colaborate. because when you compete, you can just bring your 'enemy down', to get better than him.

ok, khan's struct is well-known. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTFEUsudhfs

I really always wanted to make an website where you could just do apps, basead on your classes, doodling or whatever. if i do that, i would aim on education, website internally. really running for it.

and, wolfram's about programming + education http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60P7717-XOQ

cheers!

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#77

Post by pdelgallego »

arsatiki wrote: post #23

Whee, Finland is at the top of an international ranking. How groovy! It makes my white-and-blue heart beat with pride. Except it doesn't, really. The purpose of a school, any school, in any country, is to prepare the students for the road ahead. "We do not learn for the school, but for life." So while it is fascinating to study the performance of teenagers in a small selection of topics, the test does not tell whethe…

>> So while it is fascinating to study the performance of teenagers in a small selection of topics, the test does not tell whether they will grow up as happy and/or fulfilled adults

According to some studies [1] the 20 happiest nations in the World are:

  1. Denmark 
  2. Switzerland 
  3. Austria 
  4. Iceland 
  5. The Bahamas 
  6. Finland 
  7. Sweden 
  8. Bhutan 
  9. Brunei 
  10. Canada 
  11. Ireland 
  12. Luxembourg 
  13. Costa Rica 
  14. Malta 
  15. The Netherlands 
  16. Antigua and Barbuda 
  17. Malaysia 
  18. New Zealand 
  19. Norway 
  20. The Seychelles
[1] http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061113093726.ht...

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#78

Post by Eeko »

cavalcade wrote: post #76

A great education system is a means to an end. The end being the host country gains a great economic engine and generally happy citizens. Does Finland have this? Singapore? South Korea? Curious not disapproving...

So far the results have been fair. But Finland especially is somewhat prone for brain-drain. All that stuff is paid with hefty, progressive taxation which hurts the most skilled and salaried the most. Combining all the mandatory expenses, taxation etc, your wages easily end up to be less than half of what you could be gaining abroad.

Especially since the level of (tuition-free and gvment-sponsored on all levels) education, language-skills and the weather-back-home makes emigration fairly easy and tempting for most Finns. But so far the system does a pretty good job on keeping competitive. You might end up driving a smaller BMW than your neighbor, but the quality of education, health, stability etc. make it very attractive target for long-term settling down, making kids etc.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#79

Post by cavalcade »

Eeko wrote: post #78
cavalcade wrote: post #76

A great education system is a means to an end. The end being the host country gains a great economic engine and generally happy citizens. Does Finland have this? Singapore? South Korea? Curious not disapproving...

So far the results have been fair. But Finland especially is somewhat prone for brain-drain. All that stuff is paid with hefty, progressive taxation which hurts the most skilled and salaried the most. Combining all the mandatory expenses, taxation etc, your wages easily end up to be less than half of what you could be gaining abroad. Especially since the level of (tuition-free and gvment-sponsored on all levels) educ…

I am more familiar with Singapore and from all signs it seems they do not have the brain drain problem so they are capturing more value from the output of their great education system than Finland.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#80

Post by Maakuth »

arsatiki wrote: post #28
wisty wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, Finns speak a Finnish, a Finno-Ugric language, which is said to be really easy to learn. It's phonetic, and technical words tend to be built out of simple Finnish words, not a weird mash of Latin, Greek, and other words. This makes it easy to do sciences, as you don't have to teach as much wacky vocabulary. (Note, I don't speak Finish, this is just what I've read). I've also heard that Lithuanians (who also spe…

Lithuanian is not a Finno-Ugric language, but a Baltic one. Perhaps you are thinking of Estonian? Personally I think using the metric system is more important for learning science than the instruction language. When you get down to it, the "simple Finnish words" are just as alien to everyday life as the Latino-Greek words. A word like "jännite" does not confer any more insight than "voltage". In advanced topics Finni…

I beg to differ. Jännite has the same word base as "jännitys", which translates to tension or suspension. And that is a natural concept that is related to voltage and thus helps internalize the concept.
Post reply on HN