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Time to fork the FSF

larrythefreesoftwareguy.wordpress.com

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Re: Time to fork the FSF

#71

Post by leot »

cookiecaper wrote: post #58
leot wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RMS is wrong insofar as he believes that FOSS exclusively will result in more people having better software than if there is FOSS + ~FOSS.

The post in question makes no mention of FOSS exclusively resulting in better software than FOSS + non-FOSS. Are you just debating Stallman's generic platform here? Seems a bit off-topic to me...

RMS is glad Jobs is gone. This means he thinks Jobs' non-FOSS is a net negative for the world.

[edit of first sentence for clarity]

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#72

Post by alecco »

leot wrote: post #69
marshray wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs has put great software into more hands than RMS ever did. You do realize that Apple has been dependent on GCC to build its products for most of Jobs' second tenure, don't you? Some of that is code that RMS personally wrote. The GPL license that, again, RMS personally wrote covers the kernel of the Android system. "Great software" that's in "more hands" than Jobs' devices. Jobs was a slick businessman like Gates.…

That RMS wrote the GPL, or extended LLNL's Pastel compiler into GCC, does not endow him with responsibility for the success of all free software. Do you really think, given the influence of academia, that there would be no FOSS-equivalent compiler available but for RMS's efforts? Jobs is responsible for Apple's success. For repeatedly creating devices that have disrupted industries. RMS deserves credit for his contri…

Keep moving the point of the conversation to fit your anti-Stallman flaming.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#73

Post by drivingmenuts »

cookiecaper wrote: post #51

OS X would not be possible without RMS. You have to remember that Stallman was around before Jobs' day -- he was performing real work at MIT when Apple was initially conceptualized. Stallman therefore is apparently less vulnerable to the reality distortion field and does not unduly offer oblations to a guy who was obsessed with shininess at the expense of hacker culture. Jobs went to lengths on many products to preve…

This isn't about OS X. This is about Stallman being effective as the leader of the FSF, which apparently he feels entitles him to say any damn thing he wants, regardless of how tasteless it is. That's not the mark of a leader.

That's the mark of a self-inflated ass.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#74

Post by sliverstorm »

jpadvo wrote: post #70
sgentle wrote: post #21

I don't get it, personally. Yes, Stallman's a loon - although as an aside I think that every good movement needs its loons. Who's going to say "you know what? I believe in Free Software so much that I will use nothing else, and publicly and harshly declare that anyone doing otherwise is a moron and a traitor to the future of humanity"? Anyone who is willing to sacrifice the usefulness of the last 30 years of propriet…

The issue is not at all with his opinion. It is that he expressed it in a horrendously, gratuitously crass and offensive way. Here is a transliteration into humane language of what he said: "My heart goes out to Steve Jobs' family in their time of grief. And my heart also goes to the millions of people who looked up to him as an icon and inspiration. But we need to not get so carried away honoring the dead that we fo…

It's ironic- it would seem to be RMS who is getting carried away. A great man has died, and all RMS can think about is what this means for the Free Software movement? To me, this discredits him more than anything I have ever heard him say. Software is not more important than life.

Disclaimer: Actively avoids Apple products

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#75

Post by drivingmenuts »

alecco wrote: post #59
brendoncrawford wrote: post #19

Go ahead... fork it. Then what happens? Will you travel the world tirelessly promoting free software, speaking at universities and other events for very little money? Will you maintain a job board, mailing list, hardware database, software directory, year after year? Will you find lawyers to donate hundreds of hours to write and revise licenses? Will you hire lobbyists to fight software patents? Will you tirelessly f…

And never mind code. This basher is a complete nobody who seems to profit from open source more than contribute. It's not like the heads of several major FSF projects are banding a revolt. The sinister anti-Stallman/GNU sentiment on HN is reaching incredibly high levels. Luckily it's mostly nobodies like this big mouth bozo.

I think Stallman has earned some negative sentiment with that statement. As he is so closely identified with the FSF, regardless of intent, it's inevitable that there would be spillover.

It's not the mission, it's the man we have a problem with. Yes, he's done a lot for Free Software and software in general, most of it good. He has taught us a lot and probably learned a few things.

The next thing he needs to learn is when to keep some of his thoughts to himself. His statement, in no way, advances the cause of Free Software.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#77

Post by jwhite »

sabat wrote: post #62
_delirium wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was posted on his personal "politics" mini-blog, which consists of basically nothing but 2-3-line annoyed and not very nuanced statements on various topics. People who read it expect what they get there, and most people don't read it. Here's an example the quality of political cartoons you can also expect...: http://stallman.org/images/cartoon-6.jpg As can be seen from the Update to that linked article, I think a…

Stallman has made himself a public figure, and is a spokesman. Even on a "personal" blog, he has a responsibility to be tactful and not to make angry, hurtful, and unnecessary comments.

I don't think he has any responsibility to be tactful at all. The question is this: by whose standards should someone's words be judged as "angry, hurtful, and unnecessary"? Yours? His? Mine? Many years ago, it was very clear whose standards were relevant -- those who held political power. In societies that are blessed with freedom of speech, this is no longer the case. The responsibility is entirely with the reader to be mature enough to hear a dissenting opinion.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#78

Post by leot »

alecco wrote: post #72
leot wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That RMS wrote the GPL, or extended LLNL's Pastel compiler into GCC, does not endow him with responsibility for the success of all free software. Do you really think, given the influence of academia, that there would be no FOSS-equivalent compiler available but for RMS's efforts? Jobs is responsible for Apple's success. For repeatedly creating devices that have disrupted industries. RMS deserves credit for his contri…

Keep moving the point of the conversation to fit your anti-Stallman flaming.

The point was that RMS is wrong when he asserts[1] that Apple and Jobs have hurt the development of free software.

[1] RMS: "we all deserve the end of Jobs' malign influence on people's computing"

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#79

Post by lukifer »

learc83 wrote: post #14
bcrescimanno wrote: post #3

I tweeted earlier that I see RMS as the Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist Church) of Free Software. He may not have started out this way; but these days he's completely single issue. If you're not doing free software 100% his way; you not only disagree with him but you are actually evil. Not just free software; but free software as RMS defines it(see GNU/Linux) or you're wrong. He's so blinded by his own zealotry that I'…

While I don't always agree with RMS, I think he truly believes everything he says. I don't think the same of Fred Phelps. I long ago reached the conclusion that he tries to say the most inflammatory thing possible wether he really believes it or not. I have no idea why, but I believe he has some other agenda than just the condemnation of homosexuality. I've even almost seriously entertained the idea that he is a clos…

The Hanlon and Occam Razors, when applied to Phelps: he's a deeply closeted gay man who has to keep doubling down on his cognitive dissonance in order to rationalize obsessing over gay sex, even to the point of violently manipulating his own family.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#80

Post by themgt »

learc83 wrote: post #14
bcrescimanno wrote: post #3

I tweeted earlier that I see RMS as the Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist Church) of Free Software. He may not have started out this way; but these days he's completely single issue. If you're not doing free software 100% his way; you not only disagree with him but you are actually evil. Not just free software; but free software as RMS defines it(see GNU/Linux) or you're wrong. He's so blinded by his own zealotry that I'…

While I don't always agree with RMS, I think he truly believes everything he says. I don't think the same of Fred Phelps. I long ago reached the conclusion that he tries to say the most inflammatory thing possible wether he really believes it or not. I have no idea why, but I believe he has some other agenda than just the condemnation of homosexuality. I've even almost seriously entertained the idea that he is a clos…

The fact is though, RMS, today in 2011, isn't helping the free software movement any more than Phelps is helping Christianity

It's hard to understand the internal reality that either is basing their actions on anymore, but it doesn't change the fact that they both see the world through their own singular vision which they're no longer able to coherently share with others and convince others of - they've taken their premises as axioms and just go around preaching hate to a shrinking choir and offending the rest of us with their actions

If Larry Ellison had just died after his company purposely screwed up MySQL, OpenOffice, Java, Hudson, OpenSolaris ... RMSs comment would still be tasteless and inappropriate

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