71–80 of 84 posts
This is nice, and very refined. It's nice that it is standalone and doesn't force you to go through an app or "the cloud". loosely related is inkplate, which is a wall-mountable DIY e-ink project: https://www.crowdsupply.com/search?q=inkplate
Inkplate is a lot more affordable than ArtFrame.
When can I get one that's several feet x several feet in dimensions, like an actual painting's canvas? Eink has been around for several years now but apparently they are unable to just make a big panel? That combined with their idiotic pricing scheme makes me think their management is just stupid
You can buy big panels. They use them for digital signage but the prices aren't better. Here's a 42" one for $2500: https://shopkits.eink.com/product/42%CB%9D-monochrome-epaper... Very few companies are making eInk like displays which is why prices are so high.
Very few customers are buying electrophoretic displays because of their many limitations. That's the real reason why prices are so high.
In 2006, a 6" display would have cost maybe 10 grand, maybe even more. Today it is in the order of $25 in volume and that's purely because of the volume behind it. Step off the volume path and into hand kerfed like the 42" you mentioned and suddenly it'll be $2000. It is all about volume.
If you want it cheaper, put an order in for a million displays and that'll justify someone's effort to build an actual automated production line for it and it will drop the price by an order of magnitude.
When can I get one that's several feet x several feet in dimensions, like an actual painting's canvas? Eink has been around for several years now but apparently they are unable to just make a big panel? That combined with their idiotic pricing scheme makes me think their management is just stupid
Several years? They've been around for 25 years!
> but apparently they are unable to just make a big panel?
Yes, that's how supply and demand works. Very few people are willing to buy big electrophoretic panels with all their limitations so there's no demand, so there's no volume, so there's no justification for a factory for it so the stackup for it is handmade, hand kerfed and such so the price will be high.
> That combined with their idiotic pricing scheme makes me think their management is just stupid
What pricing scheme are you talking about? I'd love to see the details you are basing your judgement on.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can buy big panels. They use them for digital signage but the prices aren't better. Here's a 42" one for $2500: https://shopkits.eink.com/product/42%CB%9D-monochrome-epaper... Very few companies are making eInk like displays which is why prices are so high.
> Very few companies are making eInk like displays which is why prices are so high. Very few customers are buying electrophoretic displays because of their many limitations. That's the real reason why prices are so high. In 2006, a 6" display would have cost maybe 10 grand, maybe even more. Today it is in the order of $25 in volume and that's purely because of the volume behind it. Step off the volume path and into h…
I understand volume . Part of it is having competitors though. If there's literally 1 company making the display you want for your product they're only going to lower the price per unit so much. Where else are you going to go?
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> would you feel my claim was accurate? No, because Coca-cola isn't expensive - it costs about as much soft drinks produced by other companies. Furthermore I don't believe that there are any relevant patents left - its formula is a trade secret. IMO if this was the case with e-ink - we would see much better adoption and prices. Is Windows expensive right now? I don't know how much exactly vendors pay to install it on…
> IMO if this was the case with e-ink - we would see much better adoption and prices. It is unclear what you mean. I already asked which specific patent needs to be canceled for your belief (hope?) to become true. I hope you don't give the same answer others here gave in the past. Which was: all of them. That just indicates a lack of understanding of the underlying physics of electrophoretics. > Can the same be said…
Why do you find "all of them" answer to be unsatisfactory? Development of same or similar technologies by entities other than E-ink is possible only under one condition: those entities are safe from patent infringement lawsuit. With only a few specific patents expire/get knocked down somehow it would still be impossible to find investors bold enough.
> Yes. But how is that related to what I asked about? ... Because expensive based on what calculation?
You've made an analogy with Windows and I've offered an explanation of why OEM licence of Windows preinstalled on a notebook isn't seen as expensive, unlike e-ink screen of a €900 picture frame.
> It has nothing to do with patents.
Well, you might be right. Maybe it's impossible to manufacture e-paper screens at a significantly lower price point. Maybe it's inherent to this specific technology and no amount of competition and investment will be able to fix it. But we will not know it for sure any time soon. Because of patents.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Very few companies are making eInk like displays which is why prices are so high. Very few customers are buying electrophoretic displays because of their many limitations. That's the real reason why prices are so high. In 2006, a 6" display would have cost maybe 10 grand, maybe even more. Today it is in the order of $25 in volume and that's purely because of the volume behind it. Step off the volume path and into h…
I don't think Sony was losing several thousand dollars on each Sony Librie and PRS-500 they produced. I understand volume . Part of it is having competitors though. If there's literally 1 company making the display you want for your product they're only going to lower the price per unit so much. Where else are you going to go?
I don't understand the point you are making. There are many many materials, products where there are only single or a few suppliers in the whole world. Not just in the display industry, but even your software industry like Google, Microsoft, etc. Could you elaborate what exactly you're trying to say? It is completely unclear.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> IMO if this was the case with e-ink - we would see much better adoption and prices. It is unclear what you mean. I already asked which specific patent needs to be canceled for your belief (hope?) to become true. I hope you don't give the same answer others here gave in the past. Which was: all of them. That just indicates a lack of understanding of the underlying physics of electrophoretics. > Can the same be said…
> I already already asked which specific patent needs to be canceled for your belief (hope?) to become true. Why do you find "all of them" answer to be unsatisfactory? Development of same or similar technologies by entities other than E-ink is possible only under one condition: those entities are safe from patent infringement lawsuit. With only a few specific patents expire/get knocked down somehow it would still be…
You're making a claim analogous to saying "Microsoft is causing operating system prices to be excessive because of their patents". And when someone asks could you provide evidence for that, you just say "all of their patents". Can you follow why that answer is unsatisfactory?
It seems pretty clear to me that this claim that patents are the problem are coming from people who have no experience in the electronics industry or understanding of the physics of electrophoretic displays.
> Maybe it's inherent to this specific technology and no amount of competition and investment will be able to fix it. But we will not know it for sure any time soon. Because of patents.
Again. Which patent? All of them? Sigh....
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think Sony was losing several thousand dollars on each Sony Librie and PRS-500 they produced. I understand volume . Part of it is having competitors though. If there's literally 1 company making the display you want for your product they're only going to lower the price per unit so much. Where else are you going to go?
> I understand volume . Part of it is having competitors though. If there's literally 1 company making the display you want for your product they're only going to lower the price per unit so much. Where else are you going to go? I don't understand the point you are making. There are many many materials, products where there are only single or a few suppliers in the whole world. Not just in the display industry, but e…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I understand volume . Part of it is having competitors though. If there's literally 1 company making the display you want for your product they're only going to lower the price per unit so much. Where else are you going to go? I don't understand the point you are making. There are many many materials, products where there are only single or a few suppliers in the whole world. Not just in the display industry, but e…
If there's multiple competitors for a product they compete and prices are lower overall? If there are no competitors you can charge a higher price. There really isn't much alternatives for eInk that don't totally alter the product. A Kindle with an LCD screen would just be a shitty limited tablet and so Amazon is forced to pay a higher price per unit for an eInk screen than a similar sized LCD.
Sure, race to the bottom, but that's got nothing to do with OP's original claim of "expensive", nor the costs to actually manufacture electrophoretic displays, nor patents. How many competitors are there for Microsoft Windows? How many competitors are there for Google search?
What price do you think is "not expensive"? How did you determine that price?
> Amazon is forced to pay a higher price per unit for an eInk screen than a similar sized LCD.
Again the comparison to LCD despite all my multiple comments to explain that the two technologies are no where the same in terms of physical stackup, and volumes of multiple order of magnitudes of difference. It is like comparing coca cola to wine, or a toyota corolla to feraris. By the way to claim Amazon is "forced" is ridiculous. In fact, Amazon's volumes is what has enabled electrophoretics stackup to seriously commerciallize and bring prices down at least by an order of magnitude.