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Request PG: Could we please have the black bar out for Steve Jobs?

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Re: Request PG: Could we please have the black bar out for Steve Jobs?

#71

Post by cperciva »

diolpah wrote: post #69
sunchild wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize how poorly your comments reflect on your product, right? I'll certainly never support Tarsnap after reading this garbage.

I don't agree with cpercival's comments, and I am quite saddened by the loss of Steve - more so than I would have expected. But it should be pointed out that the comments in no way reflect poorly on Tarsnap. It's a fantastic product. (other than the fact that the account balance alerts only consider storage used, not traffic charges. Grr.) edit: Downvoted already? For being a satisfied customer? Really?

other than the fact that the account balance alerts only consider storage used, not traffic charges. Grr.

I wish I had a good solution to this -- but it's impossible to predict when someone is going to be using lots of bandwidth, and alerting based on the current total spending rate had a very high false positive rate since bandwidth usage usually spikes for a single day and then goes down to a small fraction of the storage cost.

The downvoting is probably for being off-topic.

Re: Request PG: Could we please have the black bar out for Steve Jobs?

#72

Post by cperciva »

shinratdr wrote: post #64
cperciva wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather be poor, friendless, and honest than be rich and have friends only because I refused to air controversial opinions. I'm glad I don't have any investors or employees who could be hurt, though.

You seem to think you are being brutally honest. You aren't, you're being painfully arrogant. There is a massive difference.

I expressed an honestly held opinion. It is possible that opinion was the result of painful arrogance. Those are not contradictory.

Re: Request PG: Could we please have the black bar out for Steve Jobs?

#73

Post by OpieCunningham »

plinkplonk wrote: post #70
cperciva wrote: post #14

I'll say what nobody else seems willing to say: I don't think he deserves it. De mortuis nihil nisi bonum and all that, but let's face it: Steve Jobs was a skilled salesman, nothing more. Let's keep the black bar for people who have actually made a contribution to computing. Edit: 2 minutes and already voted down to -4. Oh well, I knew this would be an unpopular opinion...

Why is Colin downvoted for expressing a contrary opinion? Come on folks this is HN. Fwiw On his twitter feed Colin made the more nuanced point that we didn't mourn this way for Dijkstra or Jim Gray that we do for Jobs. An interesting thought, but it didn't come through here. I think what seems to trigger all the downvoting is this bit "De mortuis nihil nisi bonum and all that, but let's face it: Steve Jobs was a skil…

One way to counter this opinion is to just state specifically how Steve Jobs is more than a skilled salesman etc. Should be fairly easy to do.

Absolutely. And if Colin were entirely ignorant of technology, the history of computers, human-computer interaction, etc. to the degree of, say, someone who has been in a coma for 30+ years, then it would be necessary to make those statements.

Re: Request PG: Could we please have the black bar out for Steve Jobs?

#74

Post by shinratdr »

cperciva wrote: post #72
shinratdr wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to think you are being brutally honest. You aren't, you're being painfully arrogant. There is a massive difference.

I expressed an honestly held opinion. It is possible that opinion was the result of painful arrogance. Those are not contradictory.

Typically people understand being brutally honest as providing a painful to hear but helpful or contributory opinion.

When your opinion comes from nothing but arrogance, ignorance, and a 4chan style need to draw attention to yourself by being deliberately insensitive, then your opinion isn't brutally honest. It's worthless, and you should keep it to yourself.

Re: Request PG: Could we please have the black bar out for Steve Jobs?

#76

Post by sunchild »

cperciva wrote: post #72
shinratdr wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to think you are being brutally honest. You aren't, you're being painfully arrogant. There is a massive difference.

I expressed an honestly held opinion. It is possible that opinion was the result of painful arrogance. Those are not contradictory.

Taking the opportunity of a man's death to call him overrated is not speaking truth to power: it's tacky and tasteless by any measure.

Re: Request PG: Could we please have the black bar out for Steve Jobs?

#77

Post by eAlchemist »

cperciva wrote: post #14

I'll say what nobody else seems willing to say: I don't think he deserves it. De mortuis nihil nisi bonum and all that, but let's face it: Steve Jobs was a skilled salesman, nothing more. Let's keep the black bar for people who have actually made a contribution to computing. Edit: 2 minutes and already voted down to -4. Oh well, I knew this would be an unpopular opinion...

I don't know you, so I won't judge. But, I will say that you sound like someone who thinks that all the honor is in the academic/theoretical exercise- that there is little or no challenge or value in making something used by real people.

Well that's well and good, but it's also smug and elitest. The value a person creates is a function of the single achievement and the number of people who use or benefit from it. By that measure, I think you would have to say that even if you consider the Mac, iPod, iPhone, and iPad small achievements the multiplier means Jobs created TREMENDOUS value.

If, by salesman, you mean someone who understands the needs of people and satisfies those needs even when they don't recognize them for themselves, then yes Steve Jobs was a salesman. And, we should all aspire to be such salespeople.

It's wonderful and good to pursue knowledge and discovery in a vacuum when everything is insulated from reality. It's a whole other thing to take the theoretical and apply it for practical use in a culture of incredibly complex and changing people. Arguably, this is much harder than the academic pursuit because the target is ever-changing.

What Steve Jobs did was not some smoke and mirrors bullshit. He was not a snake oil salesman. He CREATED! And he CREATED things that people love to use.

Re: Request PG: Could we please have the black bar out for Steve Jobs?

#78

Post by plinkplonk »

OpieCunningham wrote: post #73
plinkplonk wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is Colin downvoted for expressing a contrary opinion? Come on folks this is HN. Fwiw On his twitter feed Colin made the more nuanced point that we didn't mourn this way for Dijkstra or Jim Gray that we do for Jobs. An interesting thought, but it didn't come through here. I think what seems to trigger all the downvoting is this bit "De mortuis nihil nisi bonum and all that, but let's face it: Steve Jobs was a skil…

One way to counter this opinion is to just state specifically how Steve Jobs is more than a skilled salesman etc. Should be fairly easy to do. Absolutely. And if Colin were entirely ignorant of technology, the history of computers, human-computer interaction, etc. to the degree of, say, someone who has been in a coma for 30+ years, then it would be necessary to make those statements.

"And if Colin were entirely ignorant of technology, the history of computers, human-computer interaction, etc. to the degree of, say, someone who has been in a coma for 30+ years, then it would be necessary to make those statements."

this is the kind of unhelpful snark that doesn't have a place on HN (imo).

At least with known people like Colin, it seems better to assume good will on his part, just that he has a different opinion on the relative contribution of Steve Jobs.

And specifically to your point, it seems to me that Colin is questioning how much of "technology, the history of computers, human-computer interaction" was actually driven by Jobs himself. His answer seems to be "not all that much" and I do think it is a valid point of view that needs a refutation not a rude dismissal just because he has opinions different from yours.

fwiw I do think Jobs is more than a "salesman". I just don't have the detailed information on his turnaround of Apple or the knowludge of what it takes to run a company etc to refute Colin properly.

I think Colin's more subtle point maybe that even in mourning, we focus too much on the celebrity in the limelight and not so much on the 'real' (please note the quotes) contributors to computing.

All that said, I've said what I think needs saying and won't be saying any more on this and won't extend the thread any further.

Like a lot of other HN ers, I am processing Steve's passing in my own fashion and if I don't say the usual things like "RIP Steve. he will be missed" etc it is because that isn't my style.

Peace.

Re: Request PG: Could we please have the black bar out for Steve Jobs?

#79

Post by OpieCunningham »

plinkplonk wrote: post #78
OpieCunningham wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One way to counter this opinion is to just state specifically how Steve Jobs is more than a skilled salesman etc. Should be fairly easy to do. Absolutely. And if Colin were entirely ignorant of technology, the history of computers, human-computer interaction, etc. to the degree of, say, someone who has been in a coma for 30+ years, then it would be necessary to make those statements.

"And if Colin were entirely ignorant of technology, the history of computers, human-computer interaction, etc. to the degree of, say, someone who has been in a coma for 30+ years, then it would be necessary to make those statements." this is the kind of unhelpful snark that doesn't have a place on HN (imo). At least with known people like Colin, it seems better to assume good will on his part, just that he has a diff…

And specifically to your point, it seems to me that Colin is questioning how much of "technology, the history of computers, human-computer interaction" was actually driven by Jobs himself.

Obviously that is his position. And my position is that anyone who would ask such a question must surely have next to zero knowledge of technology, the history of computers, human-computer interaction, etc. An alternative explanation might be willful ignorance.

Re: Request PG: Could we please have the black bar out for Steve Jobs?

#80

Post by donw »

diolpah wrote: post #69
sunchild wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize how poorly your comments reflect on your product, right? I'll certainly never support Tarsnap after reading this garbage.

I don't agree with cpercival's comments, and I am quite saddened by the loss of Steve - more so than I would have expected. But it should be pointed out that the comments in no way reflect poorly on Tarsnap. It's a fantastic product. (other than the fact that the account balance alerts only consider storage used, not traffic charges. Grr.) edit: Downvoted already? For being a satisfied customer? Really?

Agreed.

cperciva has demonstrated a complete lack of tact or class, but neither of these changes the fact that he does make an excellent product.

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