… the point was never to promote the belief that ivermectin was effective so much as to create the idea that there was a controversy about it in a world view where controversy for the sake of controversy is valorized.
Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date
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Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date
#72Ivermectin works because the first trials were done in developing economies where the average person had a high chance of parasitic infections. The steroids used as a standard front-line treatment for severe COVID decreases the immune response to parasites, allowing them to multiply unchecked. This killed patients indirectly, but dead is dead , and they "checked in" with COVID, not parasite complaints. Ivermectin is…
That is not the effect they're trying to test. Yes, ivermectin is an anti-parasitic, and yes that's probably why there's anecdotal evidence of it working.
The reason people are testing it is because it has potential anti-viral properties as well. Researchers discovered that ivermectin is a protease inhibitor - which means it can prevent viral replication when it comes to Covid. The problem, from what I understand, is that no one knows the dose required for that effect to occur, or whether the drug needs to be modified in some way to do so.
The new Pfizer anti-viral drug is based on the same protease inhibition mechanism and seems to work very well, but costs hundreds of dollars for a single round of treatment. So, finding a way to make ivermectin work would create an extremely cheap treatment.
You talk about misunderstandings but it's funny how badly you misunderstand the situation.
Sources:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acsptsci.0c00108#
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2021/cp/d1cp0...
Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
This sounds reasonable, until you realise that his opinions massively skew which licensed doctors he lets on the show. So effectively you’re ending up with him pushing his opinion anyway. If you cherry-pick your experts enough, you’ll be able to find one that agrees with you, no matter how absurd your position. I’ll also note that much of the time the licensed doctors he invites on aren’t actually in relevant special…
So tired of people attacking Joe Rogan. He's a pod caster. How come people don't push more on the 'experts' like Wolensky or Fauci or the main stream media? Ignoring natural immunity, not releasing publicly funded data to scientists and citizens to do science, openly lying in the name of 'for your own good', or tweeting a statistic that is way off from the data they released - the list goes on, and these are the high…
No post body was provided.
Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date
#74Ivermectin works because the first trials were done in developing economies where the average person had a high chance of parasitic infections. The steroids used as a standard front-line treatment for severe COVID decreases the immune response to parasites, allowing them to multiply unchecked. This killed patients indirectly, but dead is dead , and they "checked in" with COVID, not parasite complaints. Ivermectin is…
To be fair to Joe he wasn't giving medical advice, but licensed doctors on his show were.
Why isn't it fair to criticize his use of his platform?
There's enough people with MDs that are willing to do more or less anything for money that checking for a license isn't really much in the way of diligence.
Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
This sounds reasonable, until you realise that his opinions massively skew which licensed doctors he lets on the show. So effectively you’re ending up with him pushing his opinion anyway. If you cherry-pick your experts enough, you’ll be able to find one that agrees with you, no matter how absurd your position. I’ll also note that much of the time the licensed doctors he invites on aren’t actually in relevant special…
So tired of people attacking Joe Rogan. He's a pod caster. How come people don't push more on the 'experts' like Wolensky or Fauci or the main stream media? Ignoring natural immunity, not releasing publicly funded data to scientists and citizens to do science, openly lying in the name of 'for your own good', or tweeting a statistic that is way off from the data they released - the list goes on, and these are the high…
You have committed the logical fallacy of 'to quoque', responding to criticism with criticism. The scrutiny (or lack thereof) for other individuals is of course irrelevant to the question.
Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date
#76Ivermectin works because the first trials were done in developing economies where the average person had a high chance of parasitic infections. The steroids used as a standard front-line treatment for severe COVID decreases the immune response to parasites, allowing them to multiply unchecked. This killed patients indirectly, but dead is dead , and they "checked in" with COVID, not parasite complaints. Ivermectin is…
> This study appears to have been done in Canada, where parasite infection rates in the general population are probably 1% or less. Hence... no demonstrable benefit to using Ivermectin! "Dr. Mills and his colleagues looked at 1,358 adults who visited one of 12 clinics in the Minas Gerais region of Brazil with Covid-19 symptoms."
I can't find a link to the actual results. Wondering if they excluded parasitic infection as a confounder, or something.
Alternately if they gave the antiparasitic far enough before the infection, the rather complex causal sequence of "severe Covid -> steroids -> parasites multiply -> Ivermectin to the rescue" might not happen in the first place. Though that should show up by severe cases not having the parasitic reaction to begin with, if the Ivermectin cleared them out.
- So in summary, actually, now that I think about it, in a country with high parasite load, an antiparasitic having no detectable effect on survival rate of a high-stress infection seems pretty suspicious on the face of it! Really could go for a study link.
Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date
#77This is going to be an unpopular statement of fact but...
It's worth pointing out, the study - intentionally? - offers no insights on deaths rates or length of hospital stay, etc.
The scope as is is: Test positive. Receive a treatment. To hospital or not to hospital? But why stop there?
In fact, as is, you can flip it over and say placebos are just as effective as Ivermectin, as there's no mention of a no treatment at all control. Or did I miss that?
In any case, helpful. But apparently flawed.
Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date
#78Ivermectin works because the first trials were done in developing economies where the average person had a high chance of parasitic infections. The steroids used as a standard front-line treatment for severe COVID decreases the immune response to parasites, allowing them to multiply unchecked. This killed patients indirectly, but dead is dead , and they "checked in" with COVID, not parasite complaints. Ivermectin is…
Good info. Thanks.
That being said, the WSJ article is limited to looking at hospitalizations. Full stop.
Nothing about deaths, length of hospital stay, so called long Covid, etc.
Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date
#79Ivermectin works because the first trials were done in developing economies where the average person had a high chance of parasitic infections. The steroids used as a standard front-line treatment for severe COVID decreases the immune response to parasites, allowing them to multiply unchecked. This killed patients indirectly, but dead is dead , and they "checked in" with COVID, not parasite complaints. Ivermectin is…
> This is why you shouldn't get your medical advice from Joe Rogan.
Could you elaborate on this one? Did he give any medical advise ever?
Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date
#80Ivermectin works because the first trials were done in developing economies where the average person had a high chance of parasitic infections. The steroids used as a standard front-line treatment for severe COVID decreases the immune response to parasites, allowing them to multiply unchecked. This killed patients indirectly, but dead is dead , and they "checked in" with COVID, not parasite complaints. Ivermectin is…
> The misunderstandings around this drug stem from misunderstandings of basic statistics and the scientific method. This is why you shouldn't get your medical advice from Joe Rogan. You're 100% correct, of course. But the prevalent MSM response, of calling it horse medicine, was equally damaging. Since it is a well known, effective, and respected medicine used in humans, this characterization as "horse paste" made it…
To my understanding, this came about because of people trying to self treat with it and the most accessible way for a lay person to get access was the aforementioned horse medicine (which came with dosages way above those for people)
I.e. it's not that ivermectin is horse medicine in all forms, but the forms of it which the people were taking in response to Trump's early promotion were horse medicine