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Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

thetimes.co.uk

71–80 of 301 posts

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#71

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Division is the goal of the adversary. We should stop arguing for no good reason if we don't have to.

We shouldn't allow people to spread lies and demonize one side unchecked. If were going to talk about problems, its best we don't scape goat on one side and admit there are flaws in both parties. Letting them scape-goat and demonize unchecked doesn't help anything either.

I stand by what I said. Focus on what you have in common and deal with disagreements by leveraging conflict de-escalation techniques such as NVC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication. Think about what you stand to gain arguing with someone on the internet. Consider what it does to your mindset. I agree with you on civil disagreement and standing up for what you believe.

For instance - I disagree with you on the lab leak theory and laptop comments. I understand you feel about them strongly, but I think you are smart and should reconsider the source material for those claims. Further, I feel the way you expressed it was regrettable: "blood on their hands" is unnecessary and inaccurate. You could have phrased that in ways that were more accurate, more effective, and less inflammatory.

Everyone is literally less intelligent, less capable of rational decision making, and more susceptible to manipulation when they are angry. I have certainly been guilty of this before, and I am just trying to share some of what I have learned.

One final comment: one thing that all social media including HN could do is remove user-visible up and downvotes. It engages the brain in a similar way to gambling (https://www.brainfacts.org/diseases-and-disorders/addiction/...) and creates self-reinforcing conflict that can be exploited.

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#72
post #49
post #38

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I don't read Russian, so I can't comment on that article. I don't find the anti-semitism charge very credible, he speaks out against anti-semitism very strongly in both the Gulag Archipelago, and several essays. He also claimed that an anti-semitic essay attributed to him was a hatched job by the KGB, which seems at least possible. I also stand by my claim that he was a brilliant writer. I think if you try to take ev…

> I think if you try to take everything in his descriptions of the Gulag system as literal fact, you'll find historical discrepancies

What ones stand out for you? I am relatively ignorant on the subject. Your comment stimulated me to google a bit and I came up with this¹ critical (and currently topical) criticism of him for anti-semitism in which he is accused of blaming Jewish people for playing a leading role in the red terror:

His reported self defense included a reference to the Kiev/Kyiv Cheka (precursors to OGPU and NKVD): 'To explain the actions of the Kiev cheka [secret police] only by the fact that two thirds were Jews, is certainly incorrect."'

1. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jan/25/russia.books

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#73
post #22

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Quoted post unavailable.

It's one thing for Zuckerberg to ban you, and another thing for Putin to do the same. If Facebook bans you, you can go somewhere else. But they aren't the only game in town and their power is limited to refusing to serve you. If a government bans you, that means almost certain death.

I mean, let's not pretend that in Facebook's ideal world where they own the market, there _wouldn't_ be somewhere else to go to. Obviously that's not the case today, but I'm concerned that it'll get there eventually just based on how network effects seem to be trending.

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#74
post #65
post #58

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No, that phrase isn't 100% true. Trump didn't wage war on Brietbart, OAN, and the like. Only "mainstream media" like CNN and even Fox when they reported what he called "fake news," actually facts he didn't like.

It's also not true at all. There was no war on any journalists. I'm not aware of a single journalist jailed by the Trump DOJ, the FCC didn't yank any licenses, nothing. It was all talk.

During the BLM protests, there were hundreds of assaults and detentions of members of the press, along with an enhanced surveillance apparatus. That these actions didn't go through the strictest official channels doesn't mean that they didn't happen.

Trump's commentary on the violence against the press: https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/19/media/trump-velshi-msnbc-shot...

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#75
post #9

It's good to remember that the previous American president also waged a war against every media outlet he didn't like by claiming they were "fake news." It's the same authoritarianism in different stages. And if you think nobody in America wants to jail journalists and media CEOs, go look at any forum with a substantial amount of Republicans talking freely.

I found this article very enlightening : https://www.csis.org/features/kremlin-playbook-3

From the center of strategic and international studies. It describes how the same ideology (white male christian) worldview is connected to Putin and Trump, and how the West is viewed as decadent through the moral lens of the fundamentalist churches in both the US and the Russian orthodox church.

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#76
post #40

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> No one is innocent I'm going to go with jailing citizens for 15 years as much worse than mildly critical journalists in Russia. Ignoring your combo whataboutism and gish gallop. Don't think Russia has much jurisdiction over some Spanish news channel.

https://wikiless.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine?lang=en Look what happened in Ukraine. Among neonazis, they supported this: Ukraine's 2017 education law will make Ukrainian the required language of study in state schools from the fifth grade on, although it allows instruction in other languages as a separate subject,[65][66][67] to be phased in in 2023.[68] Since 2017, the Hungary–Ukraine relations rapidly deter…

One little step towards fascism does not justify the massive leap towards fascism that is entailed by an autocratic regime like Putin's invading their neighbors.

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#77
post #72
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't read Russian, so I can't comment on that article. I don't find the anti-semitism charge very credible, he speaks out against anti-semitism very strongly in both the Gulag Archipelago, and several essays. He also claimed that an anti-semitic essay attributed to him was a hatched job by the KGB, which seems at least possible. I also stand by my claim that he was a brilliant writer. I think if you try to take ev…

> I think if you try to take everything in his descriptions of the Gulag system as literal fact, you'll find historical discrepancies What ones stand out for you? I am relatively ignorant on the subject. Your comment stimulated me to google a bit and I came up with this¹ critical (and currently topical) criticism of him for anti-semitism in which he is accused of blaming Jewish people for playing a leading role in th…

Sidenote: regardless of the merits of the book or its criticisms I thought this was a funny line: "This book is a weak one professionally. Factually, it is so bad as to be beyond criticism. "

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#78
post #66

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Plenty of equivalence actually. Democrats encourage anarchist militias who openly advocate for violence and arson, try to de-legitimize election results through "Russia-Gate" conspiracies, openly cheered on the fire bombing and attacking of police officers and government buildings(court houses), spread misinformation about the Kyle Rittenhouse despite all expert legal analysis saying they were misinformed.

> try to de-legitimize election results through "Russia-Gate" conspiracies US intelligence confirmed that Russia tried to swing an election, so this isn't a "conspiracy." As for the rest of your points, those positions were never embraced by mainstream Democrats.

The Mueller report showed some involvement but did not say the election results were illegitimate and there were a large amount of democrats who continue to claim this election result is not legitimate.

(FWIW I don't like trump but I still believe he would have won 2016 with or without Russia, its a cop out to blame Russia for that)

We literally had Democrat senators saying "rioting is the voice of the streets"(AOC), and calling Kyle Rittenhouse a domestic terrorist, whole portions of cities in democrat run cities were given to anarchist militias like in CHAZ and were flippantly calling these groups "peaceful" while they engaged in looting, arson, and attacking police officers.

Re: Russia to punish ‘fake news’ about Ukraine war with 15 years’ jail

#79
post #35

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As a non-american, I can see how some actions of the left seem to be a bit over the top and as things escalated might really got a bit extreme too. But is a push against racism, for gender equality, LGBT rights really wrong? Do you notice, how much people, who stand for those issues, get attacked in the public discussion?

> racism, for gender equality, LGBT rights The thing is, those are all non-issues now, and have been for a while. The reason the MSM is known as fake news in the US, is that they keep trying to push these as current issues, even though they've been settled.

This is complete nonsense. I can easily think of an example from the past week where a Republican controlled state is attacking transgender children and their parents to score political points with the Republican base. It is absurd to claim that equal rights in America is a settled topic or a non-issue.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-transgender-care-lawsuit-...

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