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Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

economist.com

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Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#71

Post by rosndo »

conradev wrote: post #26

John Mearsheimer has a really great video from 6 years ago about Ukraine that I found fascinating: https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4 Basically, he thinks the west precipitated the crisis by pushing to have Ukraine join NATO, and he thinks it should remain a buffer state between NATO and Russia

> Basically, he thinks the west precipitated the crisis by pushing to have Ukraine join NATO

This is a downright lie. Anyone who follows NATO knows that there has been very little desire to allow Ukraine to join.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#72

Post by AutumnCurtain »

stefan_ wrote: post #17
baremetal wrote: post #2

I read this as why the economist and friends want russia to want war. but maybe im just cynical and jaded?

This seems to be a popular edgy opinion but I think it's useful to occasionally remember who has thousands of soldiers massed on the border.

HackerNews has a weirdly pro-Russia bent, at least in these comment sections. People talking about how NATO "shouldn't expand" (why not, if the nations involved want to join a voluntary pact?) and how Crimea is and has been Russian, even though the Russians invaded and conquered it in the past decade... Really odd. Not just making arguments against US involvement but flat out repeating false, pro-Russian propaganda.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#73

Post by AutumnCurtain »

hollerith wrote: post #55
BobbyJo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, that's still Russia being the aggressor. Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, can align with who they wish, and be lobbied by anyone and everyone to do so, and Russia doesn't get a say in that.

And if 20 years from now, Mexico and Canada decide to align with China and invite Chinese troops to set up on the border with the US, then the leader of the US should explain to US citizen living near the borders, "Hey, I know this makes us vulnerable, and I don't like it any more than you do, but I cannot ethically do anything about it because no country gets a say in the military alliances of any other country," ac…

That would be a perfectly rational response, yes.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#74

Post by [deleted] »

rapsey wrote: post #60
conradev wrote: post #26

John Mearsheimer has a really great video from 6 years ago about Ukraine that I found fascinating: https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4 Basically, he thinks the west precipitated the crisis by pushing to have Ukraine join NATO, and he thinks it should remain a buffer state between NATO and Russia

A president with a poor approval rating and a war machine left without a war to fight make fast friends.

[deleted]

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#75

Post by sudosysgen »

jcranmer wrote: post #49
conradev wrote: post #26

John Mearsheimer has a really great video from 6 years ago about Ukraine that I found fascinating: https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4 Basically, he thinks the west precipitated the crisis by pushing to have Ukraine join NATO, and he thinks it should remain a buffer state between NATO and Russia

> he thinks the west precipitated the crisis by pushing to have Ukraine join NATO NATO doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO (at least, not for the foreseeable future). That's why, even now , when Ukraine is more or less begging to join NATO, NATO has done diddly squat to do so. A lot of the pressure to join NATO within Ukraine has increased since Russia invaded Georgia and then Crimea. Russia only has itself to blame fo…

That's really not true. The US put massive pressure on NATO under Bush Jr for Ukraine to join NATO, but Ukraine eventually faltered. They formalized a position that Ukraine was able to join NATO, and put a lot of pressure on France and Germany so that it would be that way.

Eventually, Euromaidan happened and Ukraine tried to cash into those overtures, but the West wasn't ready to back it up.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#76

Post by valyagolev »

throw0101a wrote: post #62
valyagolev wrote: post #5

my favorite hot take from the economist about this war was that one article that considered if Russia might lose because the roads in Ukraine during spring are just dirty and bad from one of the worst publications to get one’s opinions from this graduated into comedy edit: for some people it was a serious enough proposition to entertain that i had to check and indicate that no, the analysis shows that russia won’t lo…

Well, that's one of the things that did help to do in the Nazis during Barbarossa (amongst many others of course). The Russians even have a name for it: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasputitsa

wait until you learn about Cossacks

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#77

Post by purple_ferret »

throwaway4good wrote: post #66

For some alternative perspective - here is an analysis from Chinese government outlet Global Times: https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202202/1252149.shtml US needs Ukraine crisis to harm European economy, and legitimize its military presence ... Chinese analysts said Sunday that keeping the crisis intense will benefit the US in several fields: legitimizing its military presence in Europe by demonizing Russia and poison…

Absolutely true. Similarly, US needs China to invade Taiwan and take over the whole South China Sea to justify their presence in the Far East. And who are the CCP to deny such an ambition?

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#78

Post by monopoledance »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #15
daniel-cussen wrote: post #8

So to begin with, fact, Putin is a better chess player than Biden. You might think, oh it's just a board game, computers are better at it. You could say that. Apparently the strategy right now is get right next to the border of Ukraine and do military exercises, then watch as NATO loses its shit with every passing second.

So, Russia takes on a war posture. NATO naturally responds rather predictably, then Russia just pulls its troops back? What, exactly, is the strategic advantage there?

Destabilizing “the west” and preventing Ukraine from joining NATO. Look at the pandemic… Soon there will be toil about defensive measurements and expenses. The economy wont like a chronic war threat either. Putin just has to move Russia’s troops every now and then.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#79

Post by chrisseaton »

valyagolev wrote: post #52
chrisseaton wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you think this is funny? Ground conditions are a critical factor in how Russia can use their armour.

against whom exactly? nato? usa? or ukraine? in which of those cases it’s something meaningful? what would it even mean to lose/“be stopped” in each case that it would be impacted by dirty road? american imagination about this conflict surely runs wild

> against whom exactly? nato? usa? or ukraine?

Ukraine

> in which of those cases it’s something meaningful? what would it even mean to lose/“be stopped” in each case that it would be impacted by dirty road?

Armour can get bogged down as the ground defrosts in the spring - that’s what they mean.

> american imagination about this conflict surely runs wild

I’m British.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#80

Post by hogrider »

conradev wrote: post #26

John Mearsheimer has a really great video from 6 years ago about Ukraine that I found fascinating: https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4 Basically, he thinks the west precipitated the crisis by pushing to have Ukraine join NATO, and he thinks it should remain a buffer state between NATO and Russia

Making it neutral would truly be the best outcome for everyone.
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