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What do you really get from IDE-driven development?

briandfoy.github.io

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Re: What do you really get from IDE-driven development?

#71

Post by jart »

zwieback wrote: post #17

I learned programming before IDEs existed so I think I can join the author's crotchety old elitist club. As such I'm also a sceptic of anything AI-driven or crowdsourced. On the other hand, I recently allowed Visual Studio to use whatever their version of AI autocomplete is called and holy smokes - it can read my mind! Sure, you can complain about how things were better before the latest crop of tools allowed the unw…

I've always thought Lars Andersen's archery did a pretty good job making this point. https://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk What will the crossbow wielding programmers of the future look like and who will be selling the crossbows?

Re: What do you really get from IDE-driven development?

#72

Post by stickfigure »

zmmmmm wrote: post #61
rehevkor5 wrote: post #55

It seems like the author understands, or perhaps his criteria is based on, only a thin layer of what an IDE can provide. Here's the highlights: - Data flow to/from here (where did the value of this variable come from/go to) - Call hierarchy (up and down) - Class hierarchy (up and down) - Class structure (including all inherited fields, methods) - Checking your code against an actual database schema, perhaps one autom…

I think a lot of people's views have been influenced by their use of languages where the type system or overall language framework is either too weak (eg: Python, Javascript) or in some cases too complex (eg: C++) for more than a thin layer IDE experience to be possible. If you use those kind of languages then it's true, IDEs buy you a limited set of functionality and you don't need much more than a basic language se…

I cut my teeth with IDEs from the 90s that did a great job with C++. The article author is just ignorant.

Re: What do you really get from IDE-driven development?

#73

Post by Aeolun »

user3939382 wrote: post #69
zmmmmm wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people's views have been influenced by their use of languages where the type system or overall language framework is either too weak (eg: Python, Javascript) or in some cases too complex (eg: C++) for more than a thin layer IDE experience to be possible. If you use those kind of languages then it's true, IDEs buy you a limited set of functionality and you don't need much more than a basic language se…

I use PhpStorm by JetBrains and am totally blown away by how powerful it is. It does all of the GP’s list and way more.

Powerfull, but sloooow. I really want a faster Jetbrains IDE.

Re: What do you really get from IDE-driven development?

#75

Post by wwalexander »

zmmmmm wrote: post #61
rehevkor5 wrote: post #55

It seems like the author understands, or perhaps his criteria is based on, only a thin layer of what an IDE can provide. Here's the highlights: - Data flow to/from here (where did the value of this variable come from/go to) - Call hierarchy (up and down) - Class hierarchy (up and down) - Class structure (including all inherited fields, methods) - Checking your code against an actual database schema, perhaps one autom…

I think a lot of people's views have been influenced by their use of languages where the type system or overall language framework is either too weak (eg: Python, Javascript) or in some cases too complex (eg: C++) for more than a thin layer IDE experience to be possible. If you use those kind of languages then it's true, IDEs buy you a limited set of functionality and you don't need much more than a basic language se…

I agree; before I starting writing Swift, my only IDE experience was using Eclipse in college, and I really looked down on IDEs. I thought of them as a crutch required by poorly-designed and overly-verbose languages like Java.

But the IDE experience with a language that has decent type system like Swift is really great. It truly just feels like a more efficient way to consume documentation and write code.

The analogy I would make is to texting on a numpad by repeatedly tapping a key vs. using T9 (assuming you’re in the right age range to have memories of texting on numpads). Sure, T9 might have guessed the wrong word a fraction of the time, but you never felt like it was dictating the direction of your thoughts or getting in your way.

This all depends on the programming language, the package/project scaffolding, and the IDE being tightly integrated and very thoughtfully designed, but when it works it’s a real pleasure. While I still believe that all languages should be ergonomical to write without IDEs, I definitely underrated the experience.

Re: What do you really get from IDE-driven development?

#76

Post by twothamendment »

Aeolun wrote: post #73
user3939382 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use PhpStorm by JetBrains and am totally blown away by how powerful it is. It does all of the GP’s list and way more.

Powerfull, but sloooow. I really want a faster Jetbrains IDE.

Yes, if the next release didn't have a single new feature and was just a bunch of "x is faster, y is faster" - I'd call that a great release!

Re: What do you really get from IDE-driven development?

#77

Post by rendall »

zem wrote: post #22
sockpuppet69 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the 8x meant to be scissors? 8 Looks nicer. Never seen it before. Good idea. Gonna use it from now on instead of quotes or > on every line!

yeah, it's a habit I picked up on usenet! useful for sites that manage quoted text awkwardly.

I usually format it this way. I like the scissors, though. Interesting.

> "He’s a really good programmer, but that’s not why his solutions were better. Since he didn’t have suggestions to guide him, he read the docs and by simply perusing them, was aware of methods and other features that the IDE did not suggest. There were better ways in the libraries they were using that weren’t apparent in the IDE. And that makes sense: in the interface for a suggestion in an editor, how much complexity can you really manage?"

Re: What do you really get from IDE-driven development?

#78

Post by rendall »

zem wrote: post #5
pvorb wrote: post #2

I'm not sure I buy his argument. I see many programmers who produce inferior code with an IDE and many programmers who produce excellent code with an IDE. I'm in the Java ecosystem, where IDEs are pretty much ubiquitous. But I've used plain editors in the past mostly for other languages. All in all, I don't see the link between using an IDE or not and the quality of the outcome. But I do see the link between using an…

his argument is pretty specific: 8x-------------- He’s a really good programmer, but that’s not why his solutions were better. Since he didn’t have suggestions to guide him, he read the docs and by simply perusing them, was aware of methods and other features that the IDE did not suggest. There were better ways in the libraries they were using that weren’t apparent in the IDE. And that makes sense: in the interface f…

I did find that argument compelling. I'm not sure if I will yet abandon my IDE, but it's a check in that column.

Re: What do you really get from IDE-driven development?

#79

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Auto completion has always worked well as a way to discover methods, not as a way of writing code. It’s like…”so where can I go when I’m here?” without having to pour over a bunch of API docs. No one ever presses the “I’m feeling lucky button” on the auto complete suggestions unless it’s an API they recognize.

I get the feeling that co-pilot wasn’t really designed with usability in mind, more like it was just a cool thing that could be done with a large code corpus and good machine learning techniques. If they could redo it as a mechanism for discovery somehow, it would be much more useful. But I’m not sure how to do that here, perhaps ranking completable methods based on a statistical likelihood that the user will want to use them (but then we start hitting Hick’s law where sorting by name is super important).

Re: What do you really get from IDE-driven development?

#80

Post by rendall »

squeaky-clean wrote: post #48

> He didn’t use a IDE, He didn’t get method name suggestions, code completion, and so on. His solutions were completely different, and they were smaller and faster. I'm confused by this. I've used pretty much every major IDE and ignoring Github Copilot, I've never had one suggest code for me to write or suggest a method name. I've had them do things like find a typo in a method name , or alert me that I'm calculating…

I'm not sure why you're getting down-voted, but I want to ask about this.

> "I've never had one suggest code for me to write or suggest a method name"

That's confusing to me. You mean if you were coding something in, say, JavaScript, and you typed `Math.` that never in your experience has any IDE popped up a list of methods, like `abs` or `random`, that you could down-arrow through and select by hitting enter?

Like, go here - https://www.typescriptlang.org/play - and type "Math" on line 1 and then type "."

That list of pop-ups is a completely novel experience for you?

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