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15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

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Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#71

Post by sdoering »

cloutchaser wrote: post #39
sdoering wrote: post #24

I can't even imagine how these experiments are passing an ethics committee. I had never heard of this experiment before, but this report is one of these moments, that make me question, if we took the wrong branch of reality. A billionaire torturing animals for a self gain goal disguised as scientific research sounds like a plot from a James Bond movie of my childhood. I just can't wrap my head around.

A billionaire who doesn’t give two shits about money and lives in a box, who is looking at technologies to make paraplegics be able to walk again or even communicate. For some reason your attitude is very sceptical for no reason. I imagine you want to dismantle capitalism too while you’re at it?

Interesting jumps you make. Why should I want to dismantle capitalism?

I have no qualms with people making money. I like to make money myself. As long as I treat others fairly and take care of others, why shouldn't I be compensated for that?

I think in the end it comes down to values. I believe in things like ensuring that my negative impact on this world is as little as possible. While I try to maximize the positive impact on the other hand.

There is prior scientific exploration of things like Musk is testing. With proper protocols in place to ensure minimal suffering (and yes probably some suffering can't be foregone). Why not support these? Why do his own thing without these long honed traditions in science to also take the animals' suffering into account?

I would neither want to dismantle capitalism nor scientific inquiry. But I can't say that egomanical ideas (imho) thinly veiled in science for humanity don't make me want to forget my good upbringing.

But I admit. I just might be wrong, his intentions might be great and only this experiment failed in a horrible way.

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#72

Post by kkoncevicius »

A fitting quote:

"The error in depicting critics of animal experiments as anti-science becomes clear when one begins to question the extent to which the purported scientific aims of these experiments are actually accomplished. For then it turns out that the experiments and not their critics are unscientific. Those experiments that cannot be justified on scientific grounds can be no more justified than the frivolous killing and torturing of animals. In fact they are even less capable of justification, since such experiments block more fruitful uses of scientific resources."

-- Deborah Mayo

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#73

Post by cloutchaser »

kkoncevicius wrote: post #72

A fitting quote: "The error in depicting critics of animal experiments as anti-science becomes clear when one begins to question the extent to which the purported scientific aims of these experiments are actually accomplished. For then it turns out that the experiments and not their critics are unscientific. Those experiments that cannot be justified on scientific grounds can be no more justified than the frivolous k…

You don’t know the end result of an experiment. That’s literally why it’s an experiment. /facepalm

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#74

Post by radu_floricica »

Even assuming what they're reporting is true (which having read IIAOPSW's comment above now seems rather unlikely) I don't see the situation as terrible. "15 of 23 monkeys died" is in itself meaningless. We don't know how long they intended to keep them alive anyways - a reasonable protocol in this kind of studies is "have procedure, observe for X weeks, then have an autopsy to take a closer look at what actually happened". TBH, that's pretty much what I expect they do - I wouldn't want that in my head without them actually looking at brains under a microscope to check for unexpected side effects.

They're also using monkeys - which yes, look cute, but are not primates. If I'd hear chimps, for example, I'd expect them to be implanted long term, and be much more careful and sparing with autopsies.

Also most of the issues in the article don't directly touch neuralink technology but generic brain surgery stuff like infection. So worst case scenario they should improve their procedures, but there it doesn't say anything there's inherently bad about the tech.

And on a second reading of the article I realize I can't really get much cold info out of it. It reads a lot like somebody got gossip over a few beers and posted on social media and a reporter took it from there.

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#75

Post by baybal2 »

DarknessFalls wrote: post #69
IIAOPSW wrote: post #18

The article felt a bit flat. Surely there's no such thing as "oops, monkey died, let me just grab the next one off the shelf". There's no real reporting into the why or how, just uncritical repeating of the complaint that the neuralink research is dangerous / unethical. The reporting is so flimsy that one starts to look at the page and ask "wait, what site am I on anyway?" Hmm, I wonder what sort of bias a site calle…

Regardless of where the news was reported in the original post, the only thing of importance is whether or not it's true. Did you check some of the original sources? https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/extreme-suffering-15-23-... https://nypost.com/2022/02/10/elon-musks-neuralink-allegedly... This is worth looking into. First, it's using Tesla drivers as guinea pigs for automation. Then some strange experiments with…

You know that Musk Elon has a mental condition?

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#76

Post by black_13 »

baybal2 wrote: post #75
DarknessFalls wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of where the news was reported in the original post, the only thing of importance is whether or not it's true. Did you check some of the original sources? https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/extreme-suffering-15-23-... https://nypost.com/2022/02/10/elon-musks-neuralink-allegedly... This is worth looking into. First, it's using Tesla drivers as guinea pigs for automation. Then some strange experiments with…

You know that Musk Elon has a mental condition?

No post body was provided.

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#77

Post by nootropicat »

How else is brain implant research supposed to happen? It's not surprising earlier attempts ended badly, they're putting things in brain matter. It's hardly pointless cruelty.

Brain implants are way more important than self driving cars and reusable rockets. The latter are useful economically, while brain implants are a necessary step on the path of upgrading humans beyond biological limits. In the medium term they would finally allow functional artificial limbs.

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#78

Post by HPsquared »

kkoncevicius wrote: post #72

A fitting quote: "The error in depicting critics of animal experiments as anti-science becomes clear when one begins to question the extent to which the purported scientific aims of these experiments are actually accomplished. For then it turns out that the experiments and not their critics are unscientific. Those experiments that cannot be justified on scientific grounds can be no more justified than the frivolous k…

Ah, the "no true scientist" fallacy. What does it mean to be "unscientific"?

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#79

Post by austinjp »

jsnodlin wrote: post #47
arcticbull wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scientific progress has come to a standstill ... Has it? > ... with paradigm shifting knowledge within sight but out of reach for ethical reasons run amok. I mean we played this game before in the 40s, with Mengele and Japan's (and then the US') Unit 731. [1] > It’s okay let a few monkeys die, think of them like the cows you eat. I have no problem killing animals for food. I generally avoid torturing them to death…

Yes everyone is aware of what happens if you completely do away with ethics in science. Moderation is key here, the pendulum has swung too far to the other extreme from your example.

Yikes. Nope.

The more we learn about other species, the more we realise that they are thinking and emotional creatures. I would no more want to see these experiments done on a human than on a chimp.

Do the ends justify the means? That's ethically extremely dubious, to say the least. Why conduct brain surgery on primates for neuralink? Where are we going with this, exactly?

As for comparing neuralink brain surgery to eating meat, that's chalk and cheese, and anyway millions of people don't eat meat.

A very useful area of research would look into how we can understand implications of procedures like this without needing to inflict hideous suffering on intelligent creatures - including humans.

Note: I'm not saying that all animal experiments are unjustifiable, but we absolutely need to improve how they are approved and conducted.

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#80

Post by sofixa »

Lanolderen wrote: post #40
NotHim wrote: post #4

Elon almost always overpromises and under delivers. The majority of his projects never really come to fruition.

I'm kinda biased since I like his balls but I find people kinda set Elon's bar way too high. From what I see he's just a workaholic chasing his interests/dreams although at times naively.

That doesn't excuse the generic assholenes he exudes ( remember the "pedo guy" insults?) nor the arrogance ( submarine for that cave?!) nor his tunnel vision ( let's build a lot of tunnels for my Teslas, that will fix traffic congestion!). He speaks too much, and way too often it's complete bullshit. If he didn't talk publicly, he'd be a commendable workaholic chasing wild dreams and achieving some of them.
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