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CERN press release regarding neutrino experiment

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Re: CERN press release regarding neutrino experiment

#71

Post by jrockway »

drbaltar wrote: post #62
cube13 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most importantly, they're not presenting the finding as fact. They're really asking for anyone that can prove them wrong, because they don't believe it, and are almost positive that there's something wrong with either their methodology or measurements.

I wonder how the Cold Fusion fiasco was presented back in the 90's? Not that they are at all similar, but those were certainly bold claims as well.

The things that are advertised with bold claims are the things people want to believe. If cold fusion worked, it would mean free energy. Free energy would mean that we could all drive tanks around and eat animals without feeling bad, which would make us feel good. Hence, "cold fusion discovered! all of the world's problems are solved!!!!"

The speed of neutrinos is less interesting, because I don't get anything out of it right now. A "huh" and some new physics textbooks and all that, at best.

(I'm personally excited, but that's because I am more excited by unlocking the secrets of the universe than by being able to drive an SUV for free. Because I already have a vehicle whose energy source is practically free.)

Re: CERN press release regarding neutrino experiment

#72

Post by hexagonc »

AndreiVajnaII wrote: post #36
simplegeek wrote: post #6

Guys, I'm sorry I missed this recent news but I've a question that I hope some people can answer for me. So does this mean that Einstein's theory might not hold? Do we see any well-established theories break as result of this? I'm totally naive about this but curious so any answers will be appreciated.

The theory of relativity is based on the fact that the speed of light is the same for any observer, no matter if that observer is standing still or moving. From this supposition, the rest of the theory is just mathematics. So if there is something than can move faster than that speed, then the theory will still hold, as long as everybody observes the same speed, in any state of movement they are.

The problem is that we already have previous measurements of the speed of light (in a vacuum) to high precision and they have all been roughly the same. Now I haven't read the paper but the surprise of this latest experiment is that they are measuring the speed of a particle as faster than previous measurements of the speed of light. If the latest measurements are accurate then that implies that it is possible for particles to move faster than the speed of light, or the speed of light has changed, or previous measurements were worse than expected. The first or the second possibilities would both violate special relativity.

Also, if I recall my college physics correctly, special relativity not only predicts that the speed of light will be the same for all observers but that it will also have a particular value, based on some physical constants related to electromagnetism.

Re: CERN press release regarding neutrino experiment

#73

Post by hugh3 »

jchrisa wrote: post #38

lotsa basic FTL stuff here if people wanna get a broad picture http://www.weburbia.com/physics/FTL.html

That's a pretty good summary. It progresses from "things that might seem to be FTL but don't really count" through "things that are kinda sorta FTL in some sense but still don't carry any information" and into "highly speculative things which could potentially be properly FTL but haven't been shown to be possible".

Re: CERN press release regarding neutrino experiment

#74

Post by icarus_drowning »

nirvana wrote: post #26
simplegeek wrote: post #6

Guys, I'm sorry I missed this recent news but I've a question that I hope some people can answer for me. So does this mean that Einstein's theory might not hold? Do we see any well-established theories break as result of this? I'm totally naive about this but curious so any answers will be appreciated.

My background is in physics and one of my first programming jobs was writing code for a lab of international importance. At the time, I would engage the other members of the lab in an ongoing debate about Einstein, where I'd take the position that Einstein was wrong (About anything, or everything, whatever the handy topic was.) I was, and am, an Einsteinian skeptic. I learned a lot in that, and one thing that actuall…

Look, I know there's some disagreement with this comment, but why has this received so many downvotes? It isn't wildly unhelpful, is rather reasonably phrased, and doesn't attempt to pounce on the situation and make sensationalist claims...

Again, I'm not arguing this shouldn't be addressed if you disagree with some or all of it, but it isn't like this is some kind of trollbait that usually receives this kind of aggressive downvoting...

Re: CERN press release regarding neutrino experiment

#75

Post by Jach »

mootothemax wrote: post #39

There are a few interesting explanations in a Guardian article[1] published today: Heinrich Paes at Dortmund University and colleagues believe it might be possible for neutrinos to move through hidden, extra dimensions of space and effectively take shortcuts through space-time. "The extra dimension is warped in a way that particles moving through it can travel faster than particles that go through the known three dim…

Neither sound very good to me, nor are they really explanations. "Hidden" is just as bad as "magic" here. And isn't the second basically the standard aether theory that was soundly defeated at least 100 years ago? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson-Morley_experiment

Re: CERN press release regarding neutrino experiment

#76

Post by AndreiVajnaII »

hexagonc wrote: post #72
AndreiVajnaII wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The theory of relativity is based on the fact that the speed of light is the same for any observer, no matter if that observer is standing still or moving. From this supposition, the rest of the theory is just mathematics. So if there is something than can move faster than that speed, then the theory will still hold, as long as everybody observes the same speed, in any state of movement they are.

The problem is that we already have previous measurements of the speed of light (in a vacuum) to high precision and they have all been roughly the same. Now I haven't read the paper but the surprise of this latest experiment is that they are measuring the speed of a particle as faster than previous measurements of the speed of light. If the latest measurements are accurate then that implies that it is possible for pa…

No, like I said, the special theory of relativity is based on the speed of light being the same for all observers, not on its exact value. That is a supposition on which the theory is based, not one of its predictions.

If, for example we now find out that neutrinos move with 1.0002% of the speed of light, but that their speed is the same, measured by any observer, we will just replace the speed of light constant in the special relativity formulas with the speed of neutrinos constant.

But that all depends what the interpretations of the results are going to be.

Re: CERN press release regarding neutrino experiment

#78

Post by guelo »

This article from a couple days ago did a good job of dampening any wild hopes http://io9.com/5843112/faster-than-light-neutrinos-not-so-fa...

A probably nonsensical idea about the super-nova point they make: maybe what it means isn't that neutrinos are traveling faster than light but that they are traveling just ahead of light. In other words, they are some kind of shock wave moving through space at speed c but at a location just slightly ahead of the disturbance. Maybe we are detecting the supernova neutrinos a few nano seconds before when we're supposed to be.

Still, it's probably a measurement error.

Re: CERN press release regarding neutrino experiment

#79

Post by stianan »

mootothemax wrote: post #39

There are a few interesting explanations in a Guardian article[1] published today: Heinrich Paes at Dortmund University and colleagues believe it might be possible for neutrinos to move through hidden, extra dimensions of space and effectively take shortcuts through space-time. "The extra dimension is warped in a way that particles moving through it can travel faster than particles that go through the known three dim…

I don't understand how warping the extra dimension will make particles appear to move faster.

Is it possible that it is everything else that is moving linearly along a fifth dimension, thus slowing us down, and these neutrinos were moving cleanly through space-time?

Re: CERN press release regarding neutrino experiment

#80

Post by narag »

arethuza wrote: post #3

Although it is CERN that is getting most of the attention the lab receiving the neutrinos is pretty impressive - 1400m underground: "three large experimental halls, each about 100 m long, 20 m wide and 18 m high and service tunnels, for a total volume of about 180,000 cubic metres" http://www.lngs.infn.it/home.htm

Is this needed? Or could the reception be done in the surface?

I mean, the interesting question is now: how much time will it take to repeat the experiment, either by others or by the CERN but with other reception point?

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