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Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

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Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#71
post #33

Wouldn't this draw anti-trust battles? Since complying with EFI signing is against the license of one of the only other major alternatives to Windows, this would not bode well for Microsoft.

I was thinking about the same thing. Can the government intervene and label this as anti-competitive?

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#72
Summary : Machines that have the "Windows 8" logo must have UEFI, which means the bootloader must be signed with a key that's in the BIOS. Additionally the OS can use the keys to check other signed code : device drivers etc.

My conclusion : A smart vendor will include a signed program that will manage said keys in the BIOS.

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#73
post #8

I doubt any major vendor will do this. First off, they don't want to be locked into selling Microsoft-only machines. If they can't pretend Linux is an option, Microsoft can charge them $1000 for a Windows license and there's nothing they can do about it. If they have Linux hanging over Microsoft's head, though, they'll get better pricing on Windows. (Think this won't happen? It already did with XP on netbooks. When M…

Here in India, Microsoft is famous only because the pirated version is freely available from anywhere, thorough anyone at anytime.That's the only reason why everybody uses it all the time.

Take away the free option, and the non industry consumers will just dump their OS. What is stopping Linux from ruling the Desktop market is a awesome UI.

Now, I decide to buy a netbook for browsing and light development. I can save upto 1500 rupees on the OS if I go in for a pre loaded freeDOS version. So this is what I have decided, to buy a good HP netbook which comes close to 15000 rupees. Install Ubuntu LTS version on it. Remain hassle free for the next two years. And spend the saved 1500 rupees on buying a good headphone to listen to music.

I don't see any reason why I must remotely feel the need to use Windows anymore. Unless ofcourse I need to work on a word document. Most of the times OpenOffice is sufficient, if it isn't I just walk upto the next DTP store around my place, pay the guy 20 bucks and get the work done in an hour.

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#74
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never used Windows servers, and I am curious how do you do things which are obvious on Linux on a windows server? 1. Can SQL server deployment be automated? I remember reading somewhere it is mostly GUI administration, though things might have changed with WMI. 2. How do you manage IIS? Say you need to restart IIS on 200+ servers? 3. What is the remote model? Windows doesn't have a decent command line, so ssh…

I make it short: 1. Of course 2. You write a script. Or simply use something out of the Systems Management Product Family (awesome btw) 3. WMI or Powershell should do the job. You rarely write custom code when scripting....most use cases a covered by a huge library MS offers. The rest is available through google :) We have run large Windows Server Farms at my past company (SaaS Business) and maybe 3-4 Linux Servers..…

Every dummy can administrate a Windows machine....not so a Linux machine! That fact forced the Ops team to get rid of the Linux machines as quick as the could.

So you choose a inferior mediocre alternative just because you can hire mediocre folks to handle it(you mentioned 'dummy'). Ultimately having sufficient technical debt to make your miserable for the next decade.

Linux command line isn't very upfront friendly for sure, but its strength lies in automating as much as you can, programatically. When you talk of administration things go beyond cleaning up files and giving access to users. You must have abilities/tools to quickly hack up solutions to programming problems while problems in operations. That's why bash/sed/awk/perl and other Unix text processing utilities are so big on the server side. Unix forms a complete programming ecosystem in itself apart from being an OS.Windows command line is not just weak but literally useless in this area.

Its like saying just because anybody can use notepad, Emacs is useless.

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#77
post #8

I doubt any major vendor will do this. First off, they don't want to be locked into selling Microsoft-only machines. If they can't pretend Linux is an option, Microsoft can charge them $1000 for a Windows license and there's nothing they can do about it. If they have Linux hanging over Microsoft's head, though, they'll get better pricing on Windows. (Think this won't happen? It already did with XP on netbooks. When M…

> Nobody uses Windows as a server OS

Which is why my employer really doesn't use Outlook/Exchange for email, or Sharepoint for the intranet, or IIS for the public website, or ActiveDirectory to manage logins and whatever else it does, or ....

Maybe you mean, "nobody uses only Windows as a server OS"? But even tho that would work for my employer (we also have Linux and AIX) and probably all large companies (including Microsoft?), I'm sure there are a ton of smaller ones it doesn't apply to.

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#78
> The two alternatives here are for Windows to be signed with a Microsoft key and for the public part of that key to be included with all systems, or

Does it have to be directly signed by that key, or does it work like the CA system that web browsers use?

> A system that ships with only OEM and Microsoft keys will not boot a generic copy of Linux. [ from the blog post rather than the article ]

Which tells us that either systems will not ship with only those keys, or there will be a simple way to disable this ("Press F2 for setup"), or somebody will be getting sued on antitrust grounds (which maybe would be ignored again in the US, but not the rest of the world) and forced to provide a workaround.

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#79
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make it short: 1. Of course 2. You write a script. Or simply use something out of the Systems Management Product Family (awesome btw) 3. WMI or Powershell should do the job. You rarely write custom code when scripting....most use cases a covered by a huge library MS offers. The rest is available through google :) We have run large Windows Server Farms at my past company (SaaS Business) and maybe 3-4 Linux Servers..…

Every dummy can administrate a Windows machine....not so a Linux machine! That fact forced the Ops team to get rid of the Linux machines as quick as the could. So you choose a inferior mediocre alternative just because you can hire mediocre folks to handle it(you mentioned 'dummy'). Ultimately having sufficient technical debt to make your miserable for the next decade. Linux command line isn't very upfront friendly f…

What do you think makes it inferior and mediocre?

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#80
post #79
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every dummy can administrate a Windows machine....not so a Linux machine! That fact forced the Ops team to get rid of the Linux machines as quick as the could. So you choose a inferior mediocre alternative just because you can hire mediocre folks to handle it(you mentioned 'dummy'). Ultimately having sufficient technical debt to make your miserable for the next decade. Linux command line isn't very upfront friendly f…

What do you think makes it inferior and mediocre?

Reasons: --------

1. Windows was never originally designed to work as a Server side operating system at the first place. They started to drive it on the server side when they first discovered the Internet had a huge commercial potential to sell machines on the backend. There fore all means of getting things done on a windows machine for a developer have to go somehow through a set GUI's to get work done programatically. This sucks from a programmers perspective, programming is all about level of customizability.

2. Command line on windows sucks, apart from just removing, adding files/directories and running commands anything else is just a pain. The UNIX command line is a complete interpreter in itself(bash).

3. The UNIX operating system is more than an OS, its a complete programming ecosystem in itself. The whole concept of everything being a file or a process is just so elegant. You can endlessly leverage native tools like sed/bash/awk/cut/tr/perl and other text processing utilities to solve any problem with a combination of text files and processes. Which is not easily possible with windows, heck using those tools on windows is big pain. They are often ported with limitations.

4. Debugging, is a breeze. Checking logs is a breeze. Text processing utilities and endlessly configurable tools make it very easy for system administration with the help of pipes. This is very crucial for system administrators. They often want to do stuff without the help of programmers to get quick solutions when they get paged at 2 in the night.

5. Many other development features like Inter process communication with tools like DBus. Sockets et al are vastly superior in UNIX than windows.

6. Many programming languages were developed(Perl/Ruby/C) with entire context of UNIX in mind. Therefore they natively work very well with UNIX.

7. Vast resources of knowledge of troubleshooting and maintenance available for UNIX. Which makes things newbies easier to deal with it.

8. Unix is open source, its freely available. And will be there for a long time. People who supply it do it on passion and pure volunteer effort and will do it for fun and because they like. Windows can be killed by anytime for profit.

9. Vendor lock in problems. I don't understand why I should use all MS specific software all over. I can't scale horizontally due to cost issues. Also apart from .NET developing for any other technology sucks on windows.

10. Lack of multiuser login, Servers need many people to login and work at the same time. For testing and for development reasons.Servers are just so much more than deployment only boxes.

11. GUI overhead, Why should I spend my computing resources on OS and GUI when I should I actually be spending them on my applications?

12. Registry is a pain on Windows, I don't have to worry about those hassles on UNIX.

The list goes on and on...

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