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The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

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Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#71

Post by upofadown »

smackeyacky wrote: post #36
dusted wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got to say you're spot on. Keeping things working is no challenge looks at his commodores . Keeping them relevant is more of a challenge, this is one reason I hate to see people forcing redirects to HTTPS, it's just great and dandy that modern browsers suggest this to users (as long as they don't force), but for vast vast amounts of information, in the free world, you shouldn't force people into always-encrypted. T…

There is one reason I can think of for encrypting websites, it tells you the information is coming from where you expect and not an interloper. I agree its worth thinking about about serviceability and longevity but I can't help feeling like it would be like worrying about keeping a PDP 11 running for fifty years.

Why should I value the information from one internet stranger over another? You can't authenticate if you don't know who anyone is. If someone is consistently changing the information then someone is going to notice.

Just think about all that unauthenticated information in libraries. Anyone can replace pages in the books. Books can be substituted with completely fake copies. No one bothers to do this for the same reasons no one bothers to MITM connections to plain text web sites.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#72

Post by samatman »

dusted wrote: post #55
smackeyacky wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proxies like WeBone can solve that. https://github.com/atauenis/webone I use it for a solaris install. https://smackeyacky.blogspot.com/2021/10/hacker-news-in-hotj...

I appreciate the effort, but there's something that rubs me the wrong way about the state of this "force the world to always encrypt and offer no alternative", the same beef I have with Gemini. "Take perfectly good protocol" -> "Wrap encryption around it" -> "Only offer encrypted version even though the plaintext version is right there" -> "Use third-party tool and extra infrastructure to unwrap perfectly good protoc…

I mentioned this in another thread, but given a secure way to acquire public keys, MITM attacks can be fully mitigated with signatures rather than payload encryption.

A tiny client doesn't have to bother checking this signature, anything capable of receiving encrypted data could be just as sure that the payload is byte-identical with the author's intention as TLS makes possible.

The difference is everyone gets to read your postcard if they want, but I'm with you: if I have an AVR barely able to GET the weather report, and strip numbers out of it if the JSON schema doesn't change even slightly, what problem is going to arise from some bad actor reading that packet on the way in?

If Mallory starts messing with my dumb Arduino garden I can set up a firewall that checks the signatures. It's progressive enhancement with graceful degradation.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#74

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

coldtea wrote: post #52
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #2

The Commodore 64 was introduced 40 years ago. I’m not sure 50 years is that long or hard for a computer to do? This article is written like 50 years is undicipherable hieroglyphics territory. I can still remember LOAD “*”,8,1 like it was yesterday. And original Commodore 64s still run today.

> This article is written like 50 years is undicipherable hieroglyphics territory. Then again your name is Rambo, whereas the author might be some 20+ year old, for whom Rambo itself is a "classic" movie kinda like Casablanca was for us :)

Nods in Rambo.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#75

Post by karmakaze »

I grew up programming computers without network connections.

I don't think the current generation would think of such a device as a 'computer' any more than they would consider a rotary-dial a 'phone' (seen closer to a telegraph).

I tend to agree to the point in that the point of computers is the softness of software. If it never changes then it could be hardcoded and be like a typewriter but then I wouldn't think of it as a computer, which to me is like a Turing machine and program/data tape, not a particular hard-coded state-machine.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#76

Post by salamandersauce »

smackeyacky wrote: post #26
adrianN wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A project like this would be interesting for a computer that controls some other long lived thing, like an industrial control computer. There is an awful number of old beige boxes running Windows 95 controlling some very expensive machinery. The lack of software updates is not a problem (until somebody tries to introduce IIoT...), but finding replacement parts can become quite difficult.

There is a small business near me that has a wool testing machine that absolutely relies on custom DOS 3.3 based software and an old school serial card. They have had to become very astute at picking up old parts to keep their old rigs running as the guy who wrote the control software passed on, and they don't want to invest money in rewriting it. You would think commodity hardware would run this setup but all attemp…

Amazon still shows as DDR2 being available from brands such as Tecmiyo and Kuesuny. With prime shipping even. You can even get DDR1 still. Now whether it's new memory or just recycled memory that's been repackaged I have no idea.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#78

Post by treesknees »

upofadown wrote: post #71
smackeyacky wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is one reason I can think of for encrypting websites, it tells you the information is coming from where you expect and not an interloper. I agree its worth thinking about about serviceability and longevity but I can't help feeling like it would be like worrying about keeping a PDP 11 running for fifty years.

Why should I value the information from one internet stranger over another? You can't authenticate if you don't know who anyone is. If someone is consistently changing the information then someone is going to notice. Just think about all that unauthenticated information in libraries. Anyone can replace pages in the books. Books can be substituted with completely fake copies. No one bothers to do this for the same rea…

In a world where governments are even changing the ending to popular movies [0], how do you know that tampering with books and other sources of information aren't taking place?

Perhaps you're speaking specifically about American libraries, probably because most Americans don't head over to a book shelf for their information these days, but more generally speaking it's not that farfetched of an idea at all.

[0]https://nypost.com/2022/01/25/fight-club-ending-changed-in-c...

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#79

Post by halo37253 »

You can still go online with a 1980's Amiga, send emails, write a novel, etc... Most of which is being talked about here.

Hell you'd be surprised how much you can still do on a old 386 with win 3.1. Pretty much anything word processing was perfected in that era, those old versions of office still work just fine.

While you could write all you wanted with an apple ii, I wouldn't really call that as usable as something like an early version of word which is very familiar for anyone that used word pre ribbon.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#80

Post by halo37253 »

I could easily see a Sandy Bridge based laptop still being usable after 50 years, as it being able to run more modern software for the time. But with that being said C2D based hardware has no plans on slowing down anytime soon and still can be used on a daily basis, depending on what hardware graphics it has.
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