Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#71

Post by BuckRogers » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 7:35 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

The problem with the idea as I see it, is that it'll just tribalize again. You'd need to ensure that requirements are in place for learning and maintaining the chosen language, and prevent substantial evolution within it by any group of people. It's better for something like this to be a 2nd language, which is already in place for the world in English. The easy to learn and write part is mostly there, but getting someone out of the dark ages relies on them learning English. The real problem with maintaining language interop is that you have to practice it. It's infeasible to foist a new language onto the entire world, or choose one, rather than work with what we have. Money and knowledge are the only real motivators and English has it. Just as French did before, and Latin before that. Spanish, Chinese and Hindi probably also have a secure existence and always will. The rest are at risk of dwindling numbers and then extinction. So your wish has been coming true over time.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#72

Post by Sunspark » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 7:45 PM UTC

rileyphone wrote: post #63

yboris wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is a way of thought. Languages come with their own quirks, and just like [plant] monoculture is bad for an ecosystem, so would a single language. Since I was born in Russia and came to the US (thus becoming fluent in both languages), and especially after reading the book "Metaphors we live by" I see how language forces certain concepts on us. Having a variety of languages is a benefit, despite introducing pr…

The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis always catches me as something we should investigate more, but unfortunately it’s mired in the broader conflict of cultural relativity, as I learned when my anthro professor tried to disprove it with a convoluted argument from an aboriginal tribes notion of direction. A diversity of languages means a diversity of thought, which maybe you could make the case for more multilingual teams from.…

It probably helps that it doesn't require one to memorize 10,000-20,000 individual characters and isn't a multi-tonal language so it also doesn't require excellent hearing discrimination.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#73

Post by mrtranscendence » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 7:50 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #34

63 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is an integral part of every culture. It's not just an arbitrary system that everyone chose differently, but a way of communicating and reinforcing ideas that's unique to different groups. Consider the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. There's a reason language was associated with nationalism in the 20th century. Keeping the diversity of breadth of the human experience alive (much of which we've already lost with incr…

This is the standard refrain any time somebody calls for a unified language: "it's an integral part of our culture". I addressed this: > Everybody has their own local medicines, even traditional witch-doctor medicines, but at the same time everybody gets the exact same doxycycline and training on when to use it. Likewise whatever word we end up choosing for "fish" and "net": use whatever word you want in your village…

> Complex cultures pop into and out of existence on the internet every day, and they're no less complex and no less varied

It's astonishing to what degree that comparison misses the mark. No, "complex" cultures don't pop into and out of existence on the internet every day -- "gaming" culture or "sports" culture or "woke twitter" culture are not cultures in the same sense that people living an an area and speaking a common language develop a culture over time. They're not the same thing, and though you might compare them via metaphor they're so different as to make that metaphor misleading.

Amusingly, I've seen this attitude in Esperanto circles. No, there's no "Esperanto" culture in the same sense that I'm culturally North American (for example).

> When they need a culture like my culture again, they'll develop one, probably within years or months.

Culture is not nearly as ephemeral as you're making it out. You can't just develop a culture out of nothing. My "culture" includes not just a common vocabulary but a shared history going back hundreds of years; it includes visual arts, literature, intertwined family histories, the dust bowl, jazz and rock and roll. You can't just find those popping into and out of existence on Discord or Facebook.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#74

Post by mrtranscendence » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 8:06 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #40

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

Is this an unpopular opinion? I think that languages are beautiful and culture should be studied and respected—but yes, of course the world would be more efficient if we had a single universal language. (And preferably not English, since English is horrible.) There’s a reason the Tower of Babel story depicts languages as a punishment from God. The problem is that it’s ultimately a purely academic debate, for somewhat…

> English is horrible.

English isn't substantially worse than any other natural language, except insofar that it is attached to a very inconsistent system of spelling. That's somewhat orthogonal to English as a language, though, and indeed it could be written with any imagined writing system (e.g. quickscript).

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#75

Post by BuckRogers » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 8:48 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #41

tgv wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would that solve? Do large societies with a common language do so much better than those with multiple languages? > South Korean Hangul The Roman alphabet is just as simple, and much wider spread. English is a perfectly simple, easy to learn language with great expressive power. So shall we settle on English as the New World Language? Thought so.

That's like comparing learning to drive a car with learning to drive a 747. No, English isn't a perfectly simple, easy to learn writing system. It's among the hardest writing systems to learn. Which is why we have a ridiculous game called "Spelling Bees", which can't exist in a language that's easy to write in. In Korea nobody's impressed when an 8-year-old can spell a complex-sounding word they've never heard before…

>No, English isn't a perfectly simple, easy to learn writing system. It's among the hardest writing systems to learn.

I can't accept this after decades of hearing 2nd language speakers attempt to trivialize my native language as "easy".

With half the world telling me "English is easy", then it's now on them to learn the easy language. No excuses. Get to learning.

Most of your examples don't really become big issues day to day either. They may never become lawyers using English, but they'll maintain just about any other career including a medical doctor.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#76

Post by Wowfunhappy » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 9:26 PM UTC

mrtranscendence wrote: post #74

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an unpopular opinion? I think that languages are beautiful and culture should be studied and respected—but yes, of course the world would be more efficient if we had a single universal language. (And preferably not English, since English is horrible.) There’s a reason the Tower of Babel story depicts languages as a punishment from God. The problem is that it’s ultimately a purely academic debate, for somewhat…

> English is horrible. English isn't substantially worse than any other natural language, except insofar that it is attached to a very inconsistent system of spelling. That's somewhat orthogonal to English as a language, though, and indeed it could be written with any imagined writing system (e.g. quickscript).

I'm not well-versed in any foreign languages, but the little I know of Spanish grammar seems to be a lot more consistent than english. (There are footguns, there just seem to be fewer.)

And since we're talking about ideals, I don't see any reason to limit ourselves to natural languages! I am quite certain you could design a language which is much easier to learn and no less expressive.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#77

Post by phyrex » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 11:18 PM UTC

williamdclt wrote: post #21

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a third way. You combine the best halves of calculus and Harry Potter into one book. It'll be more difficult to understand, but managing so grants one the best of both worlds.

It's probably how "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality" (an actual real thing) came about.

And what an amazing read it is! Www.hpmor.com

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#78

Post by yosito » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 11:54 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #70

yosito wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The children in our family don't speak the same language as their grandparents did ... This doesn't seem to matter in any way that I've noticed Speaking as a grandchild who didn't have the fortune of being exposed to my grandparents' language growing up, I felt that I missed out on a wealth of cultural knowledge and experience, which is what drove me to learn the language as an adult. I very much wish that I would…

> You simply won't be able to understand what that means or why someone would say it as a literal translation. This is a supporting argument for my point: it’s the equivalent of an in-joke that I simply wouldn’t be able to understand. Lots of groups have in-jokes that I can’t understand. For example, 3/4ths of memes on gaming and sports subreddits. These are rich cultures I am not a part of and have no need to be a p…

Hát, a lofasznak is van vége, ugyanúgy mint ennek a beszélgetésnek.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#79

Post by xedrac » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 5:19 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #64

newsbinator wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every person who learns English writing today spends literal years learning it to the point of not being embarrassingly bad at writing it. I'm not sure if you've ever had to learn English as a non-native English speaker, but it's one of the hardest, most painful, longest things to get truly proficient at, equal to other very hard aspects in one's very hard profession. There are hundreds of millions of smart people wh…

Regarding writing systems for English, have you seen this one? We had to learn about it when growing up in Utah: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_alphabet

As a Utah native, I'm curious what decade you were taught this. I've never seen it before, but it looks pretty similar to one I created as a kid to pass secret messages back and forth with a friend.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#80

Post by danjac » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 8:35 AM UTC

kaesar14 wrote: post #68

danjac wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world decided on English. It wouldn't be my first choice - even as a native speaker - but history and inertia has decided on this obscure Norman French/Anglo-Saxon island pidgin and we're kind of stuck with it until the Chinese century runs its course and we're dealing with pictograms and tonal differences.

Until Chinese romanizes it will never be a lingua franca. Simply far too hard to learn the written word, Simplified or not.

It doesn't matter how difficult a language is to master to gain the status of a lingua franca. Have you tried learning Russian? Or Latin? Or ancient Greek?

I mean English has such a bizarro spelling system it may as well use pictograms. You might as well say "English will never be a lingua franca unless the English speakers overhaul their spelling". English is where it is because of the double historical whammy of the British Empire followed by American hegemony. Couple battles won or lost here and there and we'd still be using French.

Just as the saying is that a dialect is a "language with an army and a navy", a lingua franca is a language with the biggest army and navy (or trade/cultural influence). It has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the simplicity of the language, although simplified pidgins/creoles might develop as more non-natives have to learn it (hence how Latin evolved into French, Spanish etc). But pidgins/creoles tend to be localised adaptations and don't have the universal currency of a lingua franca - unless of course they develop into fully-fledged "imperial" languages themselves, as with English.