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Miguel de Icaza: Learning Unix

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Re: Miguel de Icaza: Learning Unix

#71

Does anyone else find it deliciously ironic that, in such a pro-Unix article, Miguel recommends Mavis Beacon? According to Amazon, it's available only for Windows and OSX :p

I'm surprised he didn't recommend gtype, it's probably the best and fastest way to learn how to type in that there are no unnecessary graphics and you need not ever touch a mouse. Fits the Unix approach much better imo.

Re: Miguel de Icaza: Learning Unix

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? vi isn't even the default editor on many Linux distributions anymore.

It is on Debian and CentOS server installs and is available on a Ubuntu default install. It's the common denominator. Why frig around with emacs, pico, nano etc when vi is always there and is the same?

The Debian base system comes with both vim-tiny and nano. Nano is the default; when the installer wants you to edit something, you get nano:

    $ ls -l ./etc/alternatives/editor
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 Sep  7 06:19 ./etc/alternatives/editor -> /bin/nano
If you want to use vim for development, use vim. But "it's the default" is simply an untrue statement. Vim (-full) is no more "the default" than Emacs. Both need to be manually installed on nearly every operating system.

(OpenBSD ships with both nvi and mg, FWIW.)

Re: Miguel de Icaza: Learning Unix

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cough ed cough though you wont find either on your fresh gentoo install

No because it'd take 9 years to compile it all ;-)

It comes with nano. Which I found totally weird, I'm compiling the frigging kernel and I need a curses UI to edit text files !

Re: Miguel de Icaza: Learning Unix

#74
post #37

Without starting a religious war, it's essential to learn the basics of vi for it is ubiquitous on all UNIX variants. Even if you use emacs, it's essential knowledge.

While this argument might have held weight once, I think these factors undermine it: Emacs used to be considered 'expensive' in terms of disk/memory. These days, it really isn't. Non-Linux unixes are less and less of a factor these days, and even most of those have some sort of packaging system where installing emacs is a quick operation, rather than a laborious download/compile/install. Emacs itself has remote editi…

It's still valid. I haven't had to use vi in awhile but there are still a lot of OSes that don't have emacs installed by default. And every so often you'll wind up on a system where EDITOR isn't set and you'll get stuck in vi by accident.

The thing is, though, the subset of vi you have to learn to is relatively small. You need to know how to enter and leave insert mode, how to delete, and how to quit with and without saving. (For a non-vi user, the difference between knowing and not knowing those simple things is significant)

This is generally enough to edit the few configuration files you may need to touch before you install emacs (network, sources.list, sudoers, etc).

So even though the use case is small and shrinking, the amount of "vi skill" you need is pretty low as well. There's really no good excuse to avoid it.

Re: Miguel de Icaza: Learning Unix

#75
post #8

I would like to add the Advanced Bash-Scripting Guide ( http://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/ ) as an incredible resource. It's obviously geared towards scripting but most of what it teaches is extremely useful for working in an interactive shell as well. I had been using linux and bash for years before I read it and I still picked up quite a bit when I finally got around to working through it.

"Nobody really knows what the Bourne shell's grammar is. Even examination of the source code is little help."

— Tom Duff

Re: Miguel de Icaza: Learning Unix

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm serious, not trying to be an ass here: Is emacs? It seems to me that both religions are not 'standard' anymore. I tend to see pico, nano, joe etc. - occasionally vi (but not vim).

"Ed is the standard text editor."

Real programmers use a magnetized needle and a steady hand.

Re: Miguel de Icaza: Learning Unix

#77
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and that validates midnight commander as a tool with the unix philosophy how? downvote all you want. but a clone of norton commander was and always will be a joke. ...saw several sysadmins using it to delete files named with dash because they didn't know "--" is posix for stop taking flags. and that's just one bad vice it foments.

> but a clone of norton commander was and always will be a joke why? P.S. - if you can answer without the elitist bullshit, people will probably stop down voting you.

For me MC has always struck me as something someone uses as a crutch when they're not interested in learning the "unix way" of doing things, which usually means using the command line.

The idea of MC never appealed to me so I admit I've never used it. When I see other people using it it seems awkward and slow, and the people using it never seem to know much about unix. Of course it could be that they just don't know the application well and it is in fact really fantastic. So my perception could be completely wrong.

Re: Miguel de Icaza: Learning Unix

#79
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Actually, I don't understand why people emphasize on touch typing here. Engineering is not a data entry job.

It's not so much "touch typing", it's being efficient with the main tool (the keyboard) that you use to interact with the computer. You don't need to be a 60 wpm typist, you just need to be able to communicate without stopping everytime to find out where the "@" symbol is.

Hmm.. interesting.I actually touch-type, but definitely have to look up the symbols. maybe i should learn that part too..

Re: Miguel de Icaza: Learning Unix

#80

in a computer lab between pepper canyon and warren college at UCSD in 1991 it was written to type 'man man' and maybe even 'apropos' was written up there on a chalk board. I taught myself unix from the manual. A few years later, I learned perl starting with 'perldoc perldoc'.

In all my years of using and loving (and abusing) the shell, I've never encountered apropos. I'm really amazed that something so fundamental has somehow been left out of the many unix/shell articles (such as this one) that I've read. Anyhow, you've made my day. Thanks!
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