Live data from Hacker News

UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

cs.ubc.ca

71–80 of 119 posts

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#71
post #36
post #6

How is this not discrimination of protected classes, and therefore illegal?

Edit: APPARENTLY NOT, SEE COMMENTS BELOW, VIDEO IS MISLEADINGLY CUT! Canadian government doesn't care about the legality of breaking human rights. Here is Trudeau saying: > "Regardless of the fact that we are attacking your fundamental rights or limiting your fundamental rights the charter says that is wrong, we’re still gonna go ahead and do it." https://twitter.com/apexworldnews/status/1473254056550449160

The way in which that video is clipped and the idea that you could listen to that and think he is saying those as a real statement and not as a scenario, are both scary to me.

This is disinformation.

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, since being a woman is also valid, the title talking about “minorities” is wrong.

Yes. Only straight, white males are explicitly verboten from applying. And it’s ok to discriminate those, right? Right?

That does not matter in this discussion. The discussion is about the title, not whether discrimination is right nor not.

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the Aboriginal version of 'transgender / queer'. The paradox is - if there isn't an objective way to identify these groups, then arguably they do not exist other than purely in terms of 'self identification' which is a serious blow to the legitimacy of anything, really. So if LGBTQ+ were formal categories, then we could just use those instead of adding 'Two Spirit'. We wouldn't use the Aboriginal, German or Japa…

Is there an objective way for the government to identify gay people that isn't based on self identification? If a gay man's rights are being violated on a protected basis, does the court refuse to hear the case until he has sex with another man in front of the judge and jury? Self identification is entirely how social categories function. Postmodernism isn't prescriptive, it's descriptive - it describes how things al…

I think that's his point, that an institution is discriminating in such a way as allows the people ostensibly being excluded to use the discrimination to rebel against slash punish the institution for the discrimination.

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#74
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: APPARENTLY NOT, SEE COMMENTS BELOW, VIDEO IS MISLEADINGLY CUT! Canadian government doesn't care about the legality of breaking human rights. Here is Trudeau saying: > "Regardless of the fact that we are attacking your fundamental rights or limiting your fundamental rights the charter says that is wrong, we’re still gonna go ahead and do it." https://twitter.com/apexworldnews/status/1473254056550449160

That's...wildly out of context. Trudeau is criticizing the existence of the notwithstanding clause and it's invocation by the Quebec government to the effect that clip has him describing, not endorsing that behavior. https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/justin-trudeau-shares-father-s-d...

Interesting, I didn't realize that. Thanks.

When first watching this, it was very believable, exactly because of Canada's recent behaviour regarding discrimination and lockdowns.

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#75

Do you get questioned on your self-expression of status? If I were to express that my gender is non-binary, as I don't identify as any particular gender in the context of job interviews, would that be a problem?

> Do you get questioned on your self-expression of status?

I’ve started to apply for jobs in the Vancouver region again and there is a place for self-reporting your race, gender, sexuality, disability, and possibly other information. You can leave it blank or you can enter it in. Options for non-binary are present and so are is asexual, as an example.

I don’t know if this is representative of the market or not. I know my employer has asked everyone to update that information for all existing employees.

Canada is pretty diverse, but the diversity is localized in a handful of large metro areas from what I can see by going through the available census information.

I’m not sure if I’ve answered your question or not?

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the Aboriginal version of 'transgender / queer'. The paradox is - if there isn't an objective way to identify these groups, then arguably they do not exist other than purely in terms of 'self identification' which is a serious blow to the legitimacy of anything, really. So if LGBTQ+ were formal categories, then we could just use those instead of adding 'Two Spirit'. We wouldn't use the Aboriginal, German or Japa…

Is there an objective way for the government to identify gay people that isn't based on self identification? If a gay man's rights are being violated on a protected basis, does the court refuse to hear the case until he has sex with another man in front of the judge and jury? Self identification is entirely how social categories function. Postmodernism isn't prescriptive, it's descriptive - it describes how things al…

The objective way to identify gay men is to ask if they have slept with gay men over a certain period.

The gov. actually do this in some cases i.e. when donating blood and on some other surveys for research.

Of course, you can be gay and celibate, for all intents and purposes (or can you? That's another question) ...

... but we do have a set of objective behaviours for what constitutes being gay.

With Nonbinary trans, Two Spirit, and some of the more exotic categories - we don't.

This is where the Trans effort is going to fall apart: 90% of citizens will accept someone who 'Roughly looks, talks and acts like a woman' - as 'Basically a Woman'.

Trans people could win the war instantly on those terms.

And I'll bet about 75% of Trans people would be happy with that - most of them want safety, equality, dignity.

I believe the majority of Trans people are not hugely concerned that the Pharmacy row for Feminine Hygiene uses the term 'Feminine'.

I will go further: the majority of Trans men and women actually want to be identified as those genders in more traditional terms, and they are not offended that our normative, popular view is that 'Women Have Babies' and 'Men Don't Have Babies'.

But a lot of the people (I believe the minority) promoting the movement want to push it further by dereferencing all popular ideals of 'Male' or 'Female' to make it entirely self-referential.

For example, some want to expunge normative ideals such as 'Women Have Babies', because of course '(Trans)Men have babies as well'. And since 'Trans Men' are '100% Men' in every way, and to contemplate otherwise is bigotry, an erasure of their identities, and therefore a form of 'harm' and 'violence' - the type of language those people use.

It's bit sad actually because the most aggressive voices in the community I don't think are pushing for material progress. Much like regular politics in the US I suppose.

As for UBC, I think they need a better way to accomplish their objectives, which are complicated by the fact that minorities are already technically hugely over-represented at the school.

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#77
Meanwhile UBC to international students:

In Christmas holidays we close the dorms. Oh? Oh what's that? You don't have a place to stay? Well. Too fucking bad. Go find an extremely expensive hotel.

Oh what's that? The hotels are charging 500/night? Well. Sucks to be you then? Maybe fly back home during the holidays.

Oh but wait, you're worried about covid? Well. that really sucks doesn't it. So sad.

This news literally feels like someone is trying to actively make the situation so stupid that other diversification efforts are also put on pause.

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there an objective way for the government to identify gay people that isn't based on self identification? If a gay man's rights are being violated on a protected basis, does the court refuse to hear the case until he has sex with another man in front of the judge and jury? Self identification is entirely how social categories function. Postmodernism isn't prescriptive, it's descriptive - it describes how things al…

The objective way to identify gay men is to ask if they have slept with gay men over a certain period. The gov. actually do this in some cases i.e. when donating blood and on some other surveys for research. Of course, you can be gay and celibate, for all intents and purposes (or can you? That's another question) ... ... but we do have a set of objective behaviours for what constitutes being gay. With Nonbinary trans…

> The objective way to identify gay men is to ask if they have slept with gay men over a certain period.

So what's the objective time period? And if a gay man has an unlucky streak for that length of time, do they auto default back to straight?

What about bi or pan people? If someone identified as bisexual but you have only ever seen them in relationships with the opposite gender, can you reasonably say "you're actually objectively straight"?

The idea of objective metrics for social categories falls apart under the slightest scrutiny. The government can assign objective markers but only for things that are objective - the whole "gay men not being allowed to donate blood" thing for example is meant to screen out HIV right? So the metrics are aligned around that goal (also it's a messed up system but that's another subject).

The government measuring certain metrics does not make them the objective definition, because the government is not the definer of reality.

I think you're confused by a lack of understanding of some of these ideas, plus a healthy mix of "there are quite a few insane or poorly reasoned progressives", but mainly the former. For example, sex and gender are different things, and some of the things you have said confuse the two, but also some arguments from trans activists also do that.

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#79
post #59
post #4

> In accordance with UBC’s CRC Equity, Diversity, & Inclusion Action Plan, and pursuant to Section 42 of the BC Human Rights code, the selection will be restricted to members of the following designated groups: persons with disabilities, Indigenous Peoples, women and gender minorities (transgender, gender-fluid, nonbinary and Two-Spirit people), and racialized minorities. Applicants to CRC positions are asked to comp…

This is racial discrimination. It's unfair and should be illegal. I understand that in some countries with a long history of racial segregation there still is a culture of casual (or even subconscious) racism when considering new hires or university applicants. It's unspoken but very real and unless you've been an immigrant or minority you don't get to see the full extend of it. But (and it's a big but) you don't sol…

> This is racial discrimination. It's unfair and should be illegal.

This problem arises because the people putting these policies into place (or their constituents, whatever) are trying to redefine the meaning of "fair".

Your definition of "fair" (and mine, and most peoples, and the sane one, and the original one before it was hijacked) is "equal treatment". Their definition of "fair" is "equal amounts of assets" - equity. Put another way, these laws are driven by people who think that it's unfair for different people to have different amounts of money.

You can probably guess which ideology this comes from.

Anyway, given that definition of "unfair", it's natural to define "racism" to mean "unequal outcomes" (different amounts of money) instead of the original "unequal treatment". From their perspective, the action mentioned in the article decreases racism.

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#80
post #6

How is this not discrimination of protected classes, and therefore illegal?

Because this is in Canada, where they aren't bound by US Supreme Court decisions? Also I don't think straight white cis-male is a protected class in any case.

The first line of the Canadian Human Right Act is:

For all purposes of this Act, the prohibited grounds of discrimination are race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, marital status, family status, genetic characteristics, disability and conviction for an offence for which a pardon has been granted or in respect of which a record suspension has been ordered. (Emphasis mine)

Straight, white, cis-male seems to fall under a lot of protected classes.

Post reply on HN