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I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

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Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#71

Post by Foobar8568 »

graecea wrote: post #43
Foobar8568 wrote: post #28

Because the required level is shit. And it has been downhill since the implementation of modern math and the rejection of math in the modern era or elitist path at school. We see it everywhere and especially in France or Switzerland. 10 years old native kids who can't read fluently. 15 years old who would write 1/2+1/3=2/5. They will keep this level of skills through the end of high school and master degree thanks to…

On the other hand most people in the 50/60s would also fail the brevet (or baccalaureat for that matter). I can't speak for the math level but I do know that school in the 60s required you to learn every single prefecture and chef-lieu by heart in geography classes, and the name of every single bone and organ in biology classes. Sometimes modern reforms aren't all that bad.

They wouldn't, check the subjects of current brevet, bac and textbooks, it's just fluff.

One fault is the drop in teaching hours : https://www.reseau-canope.fr/musee/collections/cache/a65f40c... this is a schedule from 1952.

We are lying to kids and parents : https://twitter.com/loysbonod/status/1356128734508679168

Or Pierre Colmez writting : https://webusers.imj-prg.fr/~pierre.colmez/lettre.pdf and https://images.math.cnrs.fr/R-eduire-les-in-egalit-es.html?l...

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#72

Post by visaals »

xwolfi wrote: post #3
visaals wrote: post #2

After the experience of meeting the Uber driver with an degree in actuarial science unable to apply his education it shattered my rose colored glasses about how education today is "The Great Equalizer" and the solution to all of our problems. I wanted to share these thoughts to discuss any cool ideas to bridge the gap between an education and effectively increasing opportunity for people as automation take away more…

Don't be down just because you met one guy - who knows, maybe he cant work a week without insulting a client. Dont forget that when colleges didnt exist for everyone, say 200 years ago, most people were farmers. People are selective when it comes to timeframe, but it's just a mean regression - some periods reach peak, some get back lower, but all in all, we're trending up.

He seemed like a genuinely nice dude who came from humble background who tried to improve his life situation but failed to do so, but at the same time you're right there could be something I'm missing from only having a ~20 minute chat with him.

I agree that we're trending up which should feel AMAZING, but we're human so people's individual stories are what make us feel the most ;)

Also at my high school the metric for our school's success was 99%+ of the graduating class going to college, and it felt like pure vanity because it meant more likely than not tons of people going into debt and getting nothing out of it for the sake of "education"

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#73

Post by giantg2 »

dvt wrote: post #33

> who you know than what you know Yeah, the world is a social place. There's a reason European royalty sent their kids to etiquette classes, and even these days fraternities and sororities have formals. That's how the world works. Someone that's surprised by this in their 20s or 30s was failed by their parents or immediate community and this has nothing to do with college. You need to be nice to people, you need to b…

It's that we live in a two-face system. The schools, companies, etc have policies that are supposed to eliminate or control bias. They claim it's a meritocracy. But then they tout having a network, "who you know vs what you know", etc. So why are bribes, gifts, etc tightly controlled and even illegal in many areas? So one type of bias is ok, but others are not?

You end up with people like me who are told by a friend that they will open up a senior dev position just for you. That means the other people who post to that role are putting effort into the interview process but all for nothing since I'm pre-selected. So I don't ask them to open posting so I don't take the position. So I think these backroom deals are wrong, have been taught that by society, and so I get screwed like every other unconnected person.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#74

Post by wrapupandkeepit »

Foobar8568 wrote: post #28

Because the required level is shit. And it has been downhill since the implementation of modern math and the rejection of math in the modern era or elitist path at school. We see it everywhere and especially in France or Switzerland. 10 years old native kids who can't read fluently. 15 years old who would write 1/2+1/3=2/5. They will keep this level of skills through the end of high school and master degree thanks to…

Was curious so looked it up in PISA[1] and TIMMS[2]. I agree the bottom deciles are being left behind educationally, but I disagree with the implicit sentiment that employers are able to objectively evaluate the intellectual achievement level of their applicants. That would be attributing the labor market with more meritocracy than it has.

[1] https://www.oecd.org/pisa/publications/PISA2018_CN_FRA.pdf [2] https://nces.ed.gov/timss/results19/index.asp#/math/trends

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#75

Post by giantg2 »

rowanG077 wrote: post #65
graecea wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we're being sold the 'meritocracy' narrative in the academical and technical circles. You often see it in HN discussions about hiring decisions (reasoning involving the "top 1% programmers" without any indication as to what that means exactly). If you have the introverted, dilligent, keeping-your-head-down, got-high-marks-at-school mentality that I assume is prevalent on HN, it can come as a shock…

Or you simply view being sociable as part of Merit. In fact I'd wager that to do well in almost any job you need to be sociable. Merit is not just about technical ability.

Sure, being sociable is a trait they could rate on. That's different than people giving you preference for a job/promotion because they know you or you share traits with them.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#76

Post by Zerverus »

giantg2 wrote: post #73
dvt wrote: post #33

> who you know than what you know Yeah, the world is a social place. There's a reason European royalty sent their kids to etiquette classes, and even these days fraternities and sororities have formals. That's how the world works. Someone that's surprised by this in their 20s or 30s was failed by their parents or immediate community and this has nothing to do with college. You need to be nice to people, you need to b…

It's that we live in a two-face system. The schools, companies, etc have policies that are supposed to eliminate or control bias. They claim it's a meritocracy. But then they tout having a network, "who you know vs what you know", etc. So why are bribes, gifts, etc tightly controlled and even illegal in many areas? So one type of bias is ok, but others are not? You end up with people like me who are told by a friend…

This assumes that human social interaction somehow is optional, exactly the mistake the parent went to point out.

There is no world where social skills somehow are ‘bias’. They are core.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#77

Post by tzs »

rayiner wrote: post #6

The economy that mobilized on a dime to defeat Nazi Germany and sent men to the moon had only 5% of adults with a college degree. Is it so much more complex now that kids need four more expensive years of education? And if it is more complex, is college as currently structured the cheapest way to develop those additional skills?

What was the percentage in Germany?

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#78

Post by xenocratus »

rowanG077 wrote: post #65
graecea wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we're being sold the 'meritocracy' narrative in the academical and technical circles. You often see it in HN discussions about hiring decisions (reasoning involving the "top 1% programmers" without any indication as to what that means exactly). If you have the introverted, dilligent, keeping-your-head-down, got-high-marks-at-school mentality that I assume is prevalent on HN, it can come as a shock…

Or you simply view being sociable as part of Merit. In fact I'd wager that to do well in almost any job you need to be sociable. Merit is not just about technical ability.

Being sociable has degrees and shades. There's a difference between being a good team mate and being sociable within your team, and being a suckup with some director in your org to win favours. Both are about socialising and the latter is probs more "productive" for one's career without benefitting the company (apart from pushing the clique further).

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#79

Post by ip26 »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #11

Seems like college fails to live up to being “the great educator” in too many cases too. For those of you who interview new grads, what percent of the time do you interview someone with a degree in the field who can’t do the most basic things in the field? In my experience, it’s pretty high. Even at the college level, education doesn’t seem to extend past “teaching to the test” horrifyingly often (horrifying, given t…

Some of my classmates were in nature just not cut out for engineering. Several would even tell you as much. But there's an implied contract- work hard, make the grade, get the degree. It might ultimately be more merciful if students with no aptitude could be ejected from the program- but how do you make this selection?

My alma mater didn't really push internships, but in retrospect perhaps a strong internship program would help students self select against employers.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#80

Post by dv_dt »

shiado wrote: post #52
RivieraKid wrote: post #18

A hugely important factors behind getting a job are: being likeable, looking good, not being weird, having a good sense of humor, etc. If you are in the bottom, say, 10% in these factors, employers will pick other candidates. And obviously, they won't tell you why.

A crazy stat is that 85% of autistic college grads are unemployed. Being "normal" really is the most important thing in life to fit in.

The crazy part is that having autistic tendencies correlated to some level of being great at looking at realities and getting work done.

Makes me think I should start a company focusing on recruiting in that community.

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