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CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)

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Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)

#71

Post by mrtksn »

blowfish721 wrote: post #67
mrtksn wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if they had exactly the same outcome, one is theft the other is simply breaking the rules. It's a bit like killing a person using a gun and killing a person as a result of driving like the rules don't apply to you. Once it is established that you did the act, the first one undoubtedly puts you in jail for a very long time no matter who you are and the second one may get you a fine and no jail time so that no har…

Even though what you are saying is techically correct and the reason why things work this way I wish they didn’t. I would argue that since there was intent with the action and there were victims it should be considered a criminal case rather than just breaking the rules. The victims in this case being everyone losing money during a scheme like this. The likeness of this towards accidently killing someone while breaki…

Actually you are right, they apparently did the spoofing with the intent to deceive specific traders so that the traders take action on this false information.

The car analogy would have been accurate if they did what they did without a specific target.

Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)

#72

Post by csee »

carnitine wrote: post #68
csee wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know it's far from BBO

They don’t. They clearly cover both cases.

> those close to the BBO are not "free" for the spoofer given

I missed this earlier, but it's not a good argument.

It's all about risk-adjusted expected value. There's a distribution of payoffs to spoofing, and it skews far to the right. The conceptual categories of "free" vs "not-free", or "risky" vs "riskless" is the wrong mental framework for evaluating this problem. Yes, it's not risk-free, but why is that relevant?

Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)

#73

Post by BLKNSLVR »

thathndude wrote: post #70
axismundi wrote: post #29

“This action sends the important message that if you engage in manipulative and deceptive trade practices you will be caught, punished, and forced to give up your ill-gotten gains,” added Division of Enforcement Director James McDonald. No, Mr McDonald, it's quite the opposite. The important message is that if your organization can keep the profits from criminal activities higher than the penalties, they can perpetua…

Executives needs to get jail time. But then they’ll just lobby for a new facility to be built in Aspen and for skiing to become part of the rehabilitation program. I have no answers. -Frustrated consumer protection attorney

You are doing a great service to consumers and you have my respect for your ongoing efforts despite the appearance of whispering into a hurricane.

Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)

#74

Post by Traster »

I think one of the things people ought to remember with these cases is that this is probably really bad for JPM - over the years this took place the traders will have been taking a huge portion of these profits as bonuses getting incredibly wealthy. Then the CFTC comes along and goes "This is illegal, we're taking all the profits you made from this trading + $500m in fines" at which point JPM has already paid out most of the profits to the traders, so not only do they have a massive fine, lose most of the profit from their trading on those desks for best part of a decade, they've already paid the traders a shit tonne for the liability they incurred. I had a look at their accounts but it's very difficult to tell how much JPM really made on these trading desks over that time (even ballpark) but it may well be that this fine means that JPM would essentially have been better not being in this business at all.

Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)

#75

Post by fractal618 »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #73
thathndude wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Executives needs to get jail time. But then they’ll just lobby for a new facility to be built in Aspen and for skiing to become part of the rehabilitation program. I have no answers. -Frustrated consumer protection attorney

You are doing a great service to consumers and you have my respect for your ongoing efforts despite the appearance of whispering into a hurricane.

Whispering into a Hurricane… happy Monday everyone

Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)

#76

Post by you-liquidated »

axismundi wrote: post #29

“This action sends the important message that if you engage in manipulative and deceptive trade practices you will be caught, punished, and forced to give up your ill-gotten gains,” added Division of Enforcement Director James McDonald. No, Mr McDonald, it's quite the opposite. The important message is that if your organization can keep the profits from criminal activities higher than the penalties, they can perpetua…

US prosecutors literally said that they cannot criminally charge JPM (in another case) because that would destabilize the US financial system. They are literally "too big to jail".

Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)

#77

Post by maxwelldone »

you-liquidated wrote: post #76
axismundi wrote: post #29

“This action sends the important message that if you engage in manipulative and deceptive trade practices you will be caught, punished, and forced to give up your ill-gotten gains,” added Division of Enforcement Director James McDonald. No, Mr McDonald, it's quite the opposite. The important message is that if your organization can keep the profits from criminal activities higher than the penalties, they can perpetua…

US prosecutors literally said that they cannot criminally charge JPM (in another case) because that would destabilize the US financial system. They are literally "too big to jail".

What's stopping them from charging the people responsible? Are the people so irreplaceable that they are effectively JPM?

Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)

#78

Post by nfin »

you-liquidated wrote: post #76
axismundi wrote: post #29

“This action sends the important message that if you engage in manipulative and deceptive trade practices you will be caught, punished, and forced to give up your ill-gotten gains,” added Division of Enforcement Director James McDonald. No, Mr McDonald, it's quite the opposite. The important message is that if your organization can keep the profits from criminal activities higher than the penalties, they can perpetua…

US prosecutors literally said that they cannot criminally charge JPM (in another case) because that would destabilize the US financial system. They are literally "too big to jail".

a (good) source would've been great :)

Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)

#79

Post by jsw97 »

thathndude wrote: post #70
axismundi wrote: post #29

“This action sends the important message that if you engage in manipulative and deceptive trade practices you will be caught, punished, and forced to give up your ill-gotten gains,” added Division of Enforcement Director James McDonald. No, Mr McDonald, it's quite the opposite. The important message is that if your organization can keep the profits from criminal activities higher than the penalties, they can perpetua…

Executives needs to get jail time. But then they’ll just lobby for a new facility to be built in Aspen and for skiing to become part of the rehabilitation program. I have no answers. -Frustrated consumer protection attorney

Standards of proof are different.

Re: CFTC Orders JPMorgan to Pay Record $920M for Spoofing and Manipulation (2020)

#80

Post by lottin »

pid-1 wrote: post #69
lottin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shareholders can't be asked to police the company. That's not their job. They don't have the resources nor the expertise to do it.

Shareholders literally own the company. Not making them accountable for their companies actions is prob the worse incentive system ever.

Apparently you didn't think very hard about that one. If you made the owner of a company criminally liable for any wrong-doing by the company's employees, nobody would risk owning a company. It would be impossible to have an advanced economy with these conditions.
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