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Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

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Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#71

Post by anonAndOn »

trcarney wrote: post #52
mlyle wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally believe that the government should focus on a shorter workweek rather than minimum wage increases in the near term. If we shorten the nominal workweek to 36 hours before overtime is required (and encourage this to be in the form of 4x9 or 9/2 * 8): * Supply of labor will fall, increasing equilibrium pay for everyone * Everyone's quality of life goes up * Traffic and environmental impacts from commuting s…

>I personally believe that the government should focus on a shorter workweek rather than minimum wage increases in the near term. The government being involved is the most likely answer as to why a 40 hour work week is standard and why there are so many "minimum wage" jobs. A funny thing happens when you set floors or ceilings in markets, you hit them. There should be no minimum wage. People excepting jobs will set t…

> There should be no minimum wage.

Spoken like a true capitalist! The young, dumb and disadvantaged should be thankful for the pennies that trickle their way. It's not like they're gonna sue if they get ripped off, they're broke. Besides, they can always move into high paying career ladders just as soon as they can afford to stop taking the bus everywhere. /s

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#72

Post by trcarney »

jedberg wrote: post #57
trcarney wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I personally believe that the government should focus on a shorter workweek rather than minimum wage increases in the near term. The government being involved is the most likely answer as to why a 40 hour work week is standard and why there are so many "minimum wage" jobs. A funny thing happens when you set floors or ceilings in markets, you hit them. There should be no minimum wage. People excepting jobs will set t…

In an ideal spherical cow world, having no minimum wage would work exactly as you describe. In the real world, that's you how get slavery. For many reasons, not everyone has a choice to turn down a $1/hr job.

I don't understand how people hold your view. Would you except a $1/hr job? No, then why do you think other people would. If you can make more money walking through a parking lot picking up change, why would you work. Plus companies wouldn't want to hire at $1/hr because what kind of employee are you getting? Your competitor down the street paying more money would then get the better employees and drive you out of business. This would then lead to wages going up as companies compete for employees.

This is not some ideal spherical cow world, this is how literally the entire labor market works except for the mystical bottom that the government feels they have to be involved in. Why else do you think FAANG's pay so much money? Its because they want to attract the best talent.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#73

Post by mlyle »

kbenson wrote: post #41
mlyle wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally believe that the government should focus on a shorter workweek rather than minimum wage increases in the near term. If we shorten the nominal workweek to 36 hours before overtime is required (and encourage this to be in the form of 4x9 or 9/2 * 8): * Supply of labor will fall, increasing equilibrium pay for everyone * Everyone's quality of life goes up * Traffic and environmental impacts from commuting s…

I'm a little worried about how that would affect the lower class in the short term. It's easy to say that they'll get more money as they'll get a day of overtime, but I think it's more likely that a lot of people will find that businesses just staffed up more for low skilled positions (and eventually for skilled positions), and then people have more time but are only making 80% of what they were previously, and can't…

I'm not saying to abolish the minimum wage. I'm just saying to reduce the nominal workweek before overtime.

> just staffed up more for low skilled positions (and eventually for skilled positions),

There's not an infinite supply of bodies out there. It's not clear where you'd just "find 10% more people"-- at least not without raising comp. And, of course, getting closer to full employment is a good thing in itself...

> but are only making 80% of ...

36/40 = 90%, even in this worst case where someone has their hours reduced from 40 to 36 to avoid overtime pay. I think there's a lot more poor people that are getting 30-35 hours from their job who would be nowhere close to the overtime threshold before, but now that their normal workweek is closer to the max get it sometimes.

Any policy change will hit some people negatively, but I think this would be a net positive for the vast majority of lower earners.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#74

Post by AnotherGoodName »

GordonS wrote: post #35
vitno wrote: post #16

4 day work weeks as a concept real clicked for me when put into ratios. It's a 50% increase in personal time and only a 20% reduction in work hours.

I switched to a 4-day work week several years ago (maybe 7 or 8, forget), taking. 20% pay cut. Ot really does feel like such a better work-life balance - as you say, it's a much bigger increase in personal time than it is a decrease in working hours. And I am just as productive as when I worked 5 days a week!

I did the exact same thing. It was amazing and well worth the 4/5ths pay. My mental health was improved and the only thing that made me eventually leave was that i was offered 3x the pay to work at a FAANG.

Startups trying to compete for talent should probably take note of the fact that it took 3x more pay for them to poach staff, not 20% more. I'm not saying you'll get away with paying 3x less but you also won't have to worry about losing staff if you're in the ballpark since the 4 day work week is that valuable to anyone lucky enough to have experienced it.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#76

Post by usefulcat »

Tarsul wrote: post #24
vitno wrote: post #16

4 day work weeks as a concept real clicked for me when put into ratios. It's a 50% increase in personal time and only a 20% reduction in work hours.

and less than 20% in net income lost (due to income taxes usually being progressive).

..and even less if you consider the value of benefits, like health insurance in the US

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#77

Post by narraturgy »

xhrpost wrote: post #70

I'd like to point out a less popular point that the FDWW does not lie only with employers improving but also is the decision of individuals. I remember reading somewhere about a survey where they asked people what they would do if they had 1 extra day every week (so, 8 days). The response on average was "that would be great because I could get so much more done". Now the "so much done" may not be for primary employer…

I doubt that the majority of people who would take on a second job or "side hustle" would be so affluent because of it that they would raise the standard of living. Given all the people I know who have worked second jobs, the "choice" to do so has come from them needing more money to make ends meet or to provide for their families, all while dreaming of being able to spend some time with the families they are providing for, as opposed to being in traffic driving from one job to another or in another meeting where they are expected to talk once for 5 minutes.

The people in the world working 2 jobs don't tend to be affluent because of it. There are exceptions among the 3-letter elites, such as Jack Dorsey and his multiple CEO-ships, but those people /already/ represent a standard of living that is all but unachievable for the rest of us.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#78

Post by silentsea90 »

rectang wrote: post #75

It certainly doesn't seem like it's within our grasp on HN. Looking at the December 2021 "who is hiring" thread, I see four posts which offer "part-time" but aside from that nothing which specifies that either a 4-day or sub-40-hour workweek is an option.

Bolt in SF has a 4 day workweek. Check them out.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#79

Post by gingerlime »

My company switched to 4-day workweeks at the beginning of 2021[0]. I can't imagine we'll ever go back. I guess it's one of the advantages of running a bootstrapped company with no VCs breathing down your neck...

[0] https://blog.gingerlime.com/2020/how-we-switched-to-4-day-we...

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#80

Post by frontman1988 »

I would rather have a 6 day work week with 2 months of paid holidays every year. There isn't much you can do on a 3 day break that you can't do in a 1 day or 2 day break. But a month long break and you can do crazy stuff like hiking in Papua New Guinea or sailing across an ocean.
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