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Everyday robots are slowly leaving the lab

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Re: Everyday robots are slowly leaving the lab

#71

Post by ModernMech »

nbardy wrote: post #56
ModernMech wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why UBI is the capitalist solution to a post-scarcity world; it still places capitalists at the top of the pyramid as the owners and beneficiaries of capital. The solution we should be striving for in a post-scarcity world is democratic ownership of capital like robots, so that we may all share in the fruits of their labor.

Someone is going to build the robots. You have gall to suggest seizing them all. It would require lots of violence and force.

Yes, I agree the people who build the robots should share in the wealth of the things they create. I said nothing about seizing or violence. I said democratic ownership. That would be a process of everyone coming together and agreeing on how things work.

Re: Everyday robots are slowly leaving the lab

#72

Post by foogazi »

guerrilla wrote: post #48
epberry wrote: post #6

How can you not think this is great? Freeing humans from menial tasks is the way forward. Remember when people (mostly women) would spend hours washing? Machines and automation freed them.

It really depends on who owns the robots. As it is now, the richer you are the more robots you'll be able to afford and the less labor you'll need. When labor isn't in demand anymore and most people don't have robots, then most people won't have income anymore, forcing them into poverty and revolution. Robot police and military could make successful revolution impossible.

Did that happen when washing machines became available?

Everyone owns washing machines now - people just move on to do other things

Re: Everyday robots are slowly leaving the lab

#73

Post by FredPret »

falcolas wrote: post #15
willis936 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution isn't less robots. Automation isn't the enemy, poverty is.

Automation solves problems that can be addressed by people in poverty. Automation funnels that money away from people in poverty to property owners. There is no support today, nor is any on the horizon, for people poised to be displaced by automation (in the US). Combine all of these, and you're going to end up with a class of people with an inability to meet their basic needs, and with no support from the government…

Remove all automation we already have and civilization goes to zero immediately. We already have a ton of automation. And yet, the jobless rate is at record lows, despite the pandemic.

Re: Everyday robots are slowly leaving the lab

#74

Post by ModernMech »

germinalphrase wrote: post #52
ModernMech wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why UBI is the capitalist solution to a post-scarcity world; it still places capitalists at the top of the pyramid as the owners and beneficiaries of capital. The solution we should be striving for in a post-scarcity world is democratic ownership of capital like robots, so that we may all share in the fruits of their labor.

And how does one argue for that future without immediately being labeled a communist/socialist seeking to nationalize the (robotic) means of production?

Sidestep and don’t engage with any labels. In my experience 99% of people who throw that word around as a pejorative can’t articulate what socialism is and how it upsets them. If you avoid any overt labels and stick to substantive topics, it’s very possible to have deep conversations with such people where they reveal they agree with some socialist ideas without even knowing it.

Re: Everyday robots are slowly leaving the lab

#75

Post by dharmaturtle »

danpalmer wrote: post #55
amelius wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but your dishwasher is probably not be better than a person dedicated to washing dishes. My dishwasher often leaves dirty spots and stripes, which would easily be noticed and removed by a dedicated person.

It's orders of magnitude cheaper though, and most people would accept a >90% good enough job for Also I recommend the Technology Connections videos on how dishwashers work. Most people are probably not using them correctly for optimal results.

Good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

TLDW: Stop using detergent packs, start using the pre-wash bin.

Re: Everyday robots are slowly leaving the lab

#76

Post by guerrilla »

foogazi wrote: post #72
guerrilla wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on who owns the robots. As it is now, the richer you are the more robots you'll be able to afford and the less labor you'll need. When labor isn't in demand anymore and most people don't have robots, then most people won't have income anymore, forcing them into poverty and revolution. Robot police and military could make successful revolution impossible.

Did that happen when washing machines became available? Everyone owns washing machines now - people just move on to do other things

Washing machines didn't eliminate all demand for labor. It was pretty niche like most applications so far. And yeah, most of the world still doesn't have them, so those positive feedback loops have been there the whole time.

Re: Everyday robots are slowly leaving the lab

#77

Post by FredPret »

amelius wrote: post #46
danpalmer wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My washing machine does a lot better job than I could. My oven is much more reliable at heating than I am at building campfires. My computer is much quicker at maths than I am. My TV is cheaper than going to the theatre. Automation is great when it works well, we just forget about it when it does, so we generally only recognise the bad.

Perhaps, but your dishwasher is probably not be better than a person dedicated to washing dishes. My dishwasher often leaves dirty spots and stripes, which would easily be noticed and removed by a dedicated person.

Try using multiple soap packets and rinse-aid. Works wonders.

Good thing we have mostly automated production of soap packs, so they’re cheap, plentiful, and almost as good as the handmade ones our caveman ancestors used

Re: Everyday robots are slowly leaving the lab

#78

Post by FredPret »

dharmaturtle wrote: post #75
danpalmer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's orders of magnitude cheaper though, and most people would accept a >90% good enough job for Also I recommend the Technology Connections videos on how dishwashers work. Most people are probably not using them correctly for optimal results.

Good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04 TLDW: Stop using detergent packs, start using the pre-wash bin.

I saw this but had a huge box of soap packs. So I started putting one in the prewash thingy and two more soap packs in the main section.

Now it cleans shockingly well.

Re: Everyday robots are slowly leaving the lab

#79

Post by sleepysysadmin »

We have ever increased the number of bullshit jobs that produce nothing. They don't even do anything to pretend they do something. David Graiber talked at length about this issue.

On the left wing, people like Andrew Yang, are proponents of UBI. The right wing is scared of UBI because if we do UBI, those bullshit job holders might just stay home. That will be a disaster in so many ways.

Flipside, lets not do UBI and instead do automation. We put all these bullshit job holders out of a job. It's exactly the same disaster, possibly even worse.

Lets now propose the government makes only themselves the only legal owner of any commercial robot. So Ford has to rent the robots from the government. That rent money goes to paying the bullshit job holders. It's the same disaster.

It's not just economical or political disaster. It's even mental health. There's a very large number of people whose entire self-worth derives heavily from their job. Pay them to stay home and they'll be depressed at home.

I think Keynes is someone who figured out first. The 40 hour work week needs to die. The best solution any government can do is stop changing minimum wage but start decreasing the threshold for overtime. We need to pressure the 40 hour work week down. Which is happening to some degree. Many countries have pressured down to ~37 hours. This is where we must go to solve the problem.

Re: Everyday robots are slowly leaving the lab

#80

Post by FredPret »

mvid wrote: post #32
TheBlight wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI and full automation sounds nice but it leaves you with no leverage. You will end up relying completely on the compassion of your rulers.

Unlike now, where low income workers are notorious for their leverage

They can still strike, which throws a spanner in the works of production. So they have some leverage. But who cares if people on UBI strike? What, will they stop watching TV for a day?
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