Without parental leave I might be dead • Hacker News Board

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#71

Post by endisneigh » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

letmeinhere wrote: post #63

endisneigh wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not a Ponzi scheme? You need more people to fund the previous beneficiaries. You think the math works if the population never increases? Consider how you’d fund it if the population decreased and immigration did not exist.

So in your mind Charles Ponzi innovated the principle of factoring in the likelihood of growth into economic planning? And any investment that is premised on that growth is thus a Ponzi scheme? I guess we can use words however we want, sure. Also, again, lol that roads pass this criteria. No expectation of growth and expanding tax bases there...

Requiring growth is not a Ponzi scheme, requiring additional investors for the initial ones to be paid is.

Do you have an actual rebuttal?

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#72

Post by endisneigh » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #66

endisneigh wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is forcing women back to work?

Reality. Way too many people only can make ends meet by both partners being full-time employed - and in some cases (such as shown by a recent Last Week Tonight episode) even that is not enough to prevent being homeless. Rents are too high, and wages are too low.

People don’t have to have children. And people can and do stay at home with their children at all income levels.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#73

Post by TimPC » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:50 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #18

The problem with parental leave is the same problem with universal health care or any entitlement that isn’t utilized by the entire population at the same rate constantly. Things like roads (and even then there are many locales with crappy roads) are easy to justify. Things like parental leave and universal health care are hard because the percentage of those utilizing will be low and the disproportionate benefit wil…

Roads aren’t as easy to justify as you think. Different people use them at different rates and in order to account for this there is a concept called a “toll road” which is a road that has usage fees. I’d argue if you can support public roads despite them being used at different rates by the population then these benefits shouldn’t be shot down by the same objection.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#74

Post by onionisafruit » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:50 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #48

onionisafruit wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think I will agree with you, but I’m curious to see how paid parental leave is like a Ponzi scheme.

The addition of more people to tax is necessary in order to fund the precious generation. Most insurance/probabilistic entitlements have the same property. It’s the only way the math can work.

I get you now. You mean the bigger system of mandating benefits to be paid for by future taxes, not specifically paid parental leave.

I still don't agree it's a Ponzi scheme because it's not soliciting investments with promises of big payoffs unless you count paying taxes as investing. I would agree that is shares an important property with a Ponzi scheme. It will fail when it can no longer increase the amount that gets paid in.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#75

Post by goldcd » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #14

bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> Saying "other countries do it" isn't really an answer. It is an answer. For example, my cousin in England was able to spend a year breastfeeding her daughters without having to go through the arduous process of pumping. Their family is alive and well, and so is the UK.

Yes.

Also, I have never once heard anybody here complain that maternity/paternity leave is in some way damaging the company/employee/economy - just stuff that happens in the office.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#76

Post by endisneigh » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

onionisafruit wrote: post #74

endisneigh wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The addition of more people to tax is necessary in order to fund the precious generation. Most insurance/probabilistic entitlements have the same property. It’s the only way the math can work.

I get you now. You mean the bigger system of mandating benefits to be paid for by future taxes, not specifically paid parental leave. I still don't agree it's a Ponzi scheme because it's not soliciting investments with promises of big payoffs unless you count paying taxes as investing. I would agree that is shares an important property with a Ponzi scheme. It will fail when it can no longer increase the amount that g…

I call it a Ponzi scheme because there’s a discrete payoff - having a child and receiving paid time off.

Taxes in general aren’t a Ponzi scheme because many of the things paid for by taxes are continuous - less people, less tax collection needed. Tax collection for roads being an example.

Parental leave and the amount of taxes necessary is more contingent on the future population than the present.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#77

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #28

I really cant understand the logic of forcing women back into work after 2-4 weeks. Its just not beneficial for anyone. The mum is utterly frazzled. The employer gets half an employee back Society is conditioned to think that the only practical way to raise a baby is to give up on work/get live in care. now, to look at it from a "my mum managed, I don't want to undermine the american nuclear family" point of view: Ye…

[deleted]

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#78

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #64

While I agree that family leave is a good thing and needs some discussion about how to implement/fund it, I really dislike the title. It's a real stretch to claim that if she didn't have paid leave that she might be dead. The real root of the issue is that she should have been paying attention to her symptoms. One could even make the arguement that if she needed to go back to work sooner, that the symptoms would have…

I agree, the only way the author's premise makes sense is if she was given bad information, and she did not bother to research anywhere else. With both of my wife's pregnancies on both coasts of the US, we were told to immediately call the doctor if bleeding persisted after a couple weeks. You are even told exactly what the bleeding should look like and how its characteristics should change over time, and if it deviates, to call the doctor.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#79

Post by rsj_hn » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity)

It is always citizens that shoulder the burden one way or another.

    Self:  Pay with your own savings
    Firm:  Pay with higher prices and lower wages 
    State: Pay with higher taxes paid to the state

If you ask me, option 3) seems to distribute the pain to the most people, which does mean that singles who never get pregnant will be paying you to take leave, and most likely the benefits will be capped so that high earners don't get 100% of their wages, and those who don't work much the year before may get some average of salary earned, nevertheless I'm OK subsidizing fertility like this.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#80

Post by jcranmer » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #32

speedgoose wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saying "other countries do it" isn't really an answer. There's no clear solutions Your argument makes me think about this satiric article : https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-na... I live in a country where it's exactly what we do, and it's fine. I took a 7 months paid parental leave as a dad recently and my company congratulated me for the birth.

Again, saying "other countries do it" isn't really an answer. That's like saying why are incomes in Mexico so much lower than the US? Just do what the US does. In fact, Mexico has 12 weeks. And Greece has 40. I'd rather be a parent in the US than Greece or Mexico. Policies don't exist in a vacuum.

Sweden has 48 weeks. Would you rather be a parent in the US than Sweden?