Circuit designer here - feel free to ask any questions about the manufacturing process, design etc. Having a thorough understanding of the process, I thought this was hilarious. But if you really want to understand the process, it's pretty terrible. It spends 10 steps on making a wafer, and then the bulk of the actual process is condensed to 16.
Not what you were offering so feel free to ignore this, but I'm super curious about RISC-V. Do you know if any serious attempts are happening to make RISC-V based systems? And if not, do you know why? Is it too raw/un-polished?
How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation
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Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation
#72Circuit designer here - feel free to ask any questions about the manufacturing process, design etc. Having a thorough understanding of the process, I thought this was hilarious. But if you really want to understand the process, it's pretty terrible. It spends 10 steps on making a wafer, and then the bulk of the actual process is condensed to 16.
Can you talk about if the US has microchip supremacy due to raw materials from Spuce Pine's pure silicon, and if there are any sources that are almost as good or being used instead? Is it almost like De Beer's diamond monopoly? Do you use any countries or specific factories that do better refinement or are the raw materials directly shipped to the manufacturing country? What do you make from the wafers usually? Are c…
Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's the canonical book? I used to know this from my EE days, but it's been too long.
For circuit design or manufacturing? I haven't been in school for a while, so I'm not sure what's current. I really liked Baker's book - CMOS circuit design. It had a decent overview of the manufacturing process for the perspective of a designer, as well as good introductions to major design topics. Unfortunately, with modern processes, most of the textbook design equations and learning no longer apply so it becomes…
Yeah of course when it comes to how things are actually done it's hard to know without actually working in the field. But I just wanted an overview.
Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
For circuit design or manufacturing? I haven't been in school for a while, so I'm not sure what's current. I really liked Baker's book - CMOS circuit design. It had a decent overview of the manufacturing process for the perspective of a designer, as well as good introductions to major design topics. Unfortunately, with modern processes, most of the textbook design equations and learning no longer apply so it becomes…
Both. Ah I think I might have had that book until my parents' basement flooded. Yeah of course when it comes to how things are actually done it's hard to know without actually working in the field. But I just wanted an overview.
Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation
#75Circuit designer here - feel free to ask any questions about the manufacturing process, design etc. Having a thorough understanding of the process, I thought this was hilarious. But if you really want to understand the process, it's pretty terrible. It spends 10 steps on making a wafer, and then the bulk of the actual process is condensed to 16.
Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation
#76It'd be really awesome if microprocessors, even at a low-end process node like 130 nm, could be made with room-sized machines or smaller. There's a lot of space for companies wanted to manufacture their own MCUs, for instance, without relying on massive supply chains. I think this'll happen at some point, as silicon manufacturing hits final roadblocks and becomes increasingly commoditized, but it'd be nice if it were…
Well, this chap managed to make his own chips at home: http://sam.zeloof.xyz/category/semiconductor/ Plus an electron microscope!
Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation
#77It'd be really awesome if microprocessors, even at a low-end process node like 130 nm, could be made with room-sized machines or smaller. There's a lot of space for companies wanted to manufacture their own MCUs, for instance, without relying on massive supply chains. I think this'll happen at some point, as silicon manufacturing hits final roadblocks and becomes increasingly commoditized, but it'd be nice if it were…
If you knew enough VHDL you can make your own digital chips including CPUs using off the shelf FPGAs... https://blog.classycode.com/implementing-a-cpu-in-vhdl-part-...
Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation
#78It'd be really awesome if microprocessors, even at a low-end process node like 130 nm, could be made with room-sized machines or smaller. There's a lot of space for companies wanted to manufacture their own MCUs, for instance, without relying on massive supply chains. I think this'll happen at some point, as silicon manufacturing hits final roadblocks and becomes increasingly commoditized, but it'd be nice if it were…
https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/diy-chip-10k... https://www.hackster.io/news/efabless-google-and-skywater-ar...
If you are interested in self-sufficient decentralized communities, microchips are not essential for a good society or long life. https://aeon.co/ideas/think-everyone-died-young-in-ancient-s... They're useful for being able to make non specialized hardware that can run general programs that many can support. Microchips do calculations and are more useful in scaling, analog computers can take some roles but it will be more wasteful to produce specialized hardware.
I don't know if vaccuum tubes need globaliziaton to make but you are not going to make decentralized microchips with local goods, they are not fungible raw materials like food.
Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation
#79Circuit designer here - feel free to ask any questions about the manufacturing process, design etc. Having a thorough understanding of the process, I thought this was hilarious. But if you really want to understand the process, it's pretty terrible. It spends 10 steps on making a wafer, and then the bulk of the actual process is condensed to 16.
Can you talk about if the US has microchip supremacy due to raw materials from Spuce Pine's pure silicon, and if there are any sources that are almost as good or being used instead? Is it almost like De Beer's diamond monopoly? Do you use any countries or specific factories that do better refinement or are the raw materials directly shipped to the manufacturing country? What do you make from the wafers usually? Are c…
Another issue is the equipment used for manufacturing. It's very hard to come by, and the classic example is ASML (Netherlands), which dominates the market for lithography equipment.
I work on the design side, not in a fab, so I can't tell you much about sourcing or refining the silicon for wafers. Wafers are used to make every single microchip you can imagine. There has been a slow but continuous push towards using larger wafers, since its more cost-effective. I imagine it's more difficult, but couldn't tell you any specifics.
As far as manufacturing each individual integrated circuit: yes, larger is harder to manufacture because there is more physical space for a defect to occur. There are some design challenges as well when you get very large, but it's not a significant overhead because you're usually doing your design in sub-pieces anyways.
Some designs do use redundancy, as you mentioned. This is more often the case for very large, very uniform structures, like DRAM, flash, CPU cache, etc. But there's a tradeoff because you waste money on that redundancy for every chip that comes out with no defects. And there's overhead to actually testing the part in order to utilize the redundancy. In my experience, yields are targeted at the high 90%s these days, so the redundancy would have to be very cheap to be worth it. For almost all RF, analog, and mixed-signal circuits, there is no redundancy. I'd say most digital circuits, except the largest, also don't have any.
Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation
#80Circuit designer here - feel free to ask any questions about the manufacturing process, design etc. Having a thorough understanding of the process, I thought this was hilarious. But if you really want to understand the process, it's pretty terrible. It spends 10 steps on making a wafer, and then the bulk of the actual process is condensed to 16.
Do you think chips in the 10k-100k transistor range will some day be able to be produced by hobbyists? Or are the chemicals simply too dangerous and machines too expensive to be affordable at that scale?