Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops • Hacker News Board

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#71

Post by newbamboo » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #50

jacobolus wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Active involvement = parent teaches child various skills and ideas, reads books aloud, suggests interesting problems to solve, works together with them on extra-curricular projects, obtains materials and resources related to the child’s personal interests, ... Micromanaging the completion of their school-assigned busywork is something different.

I don't know if you have kids, I am guessing not, if I am wrong, my apologies. Knowing what your kids have due for school is not micromanaging its a core part of being a good parent. I know if my kid has a math test so it lets me sit down with him and review for his test, it allows me to ensure he knows the basis for whatever comes next in his curriculum. Terribly overbearing parents are not good but I think people a…

I think it’s good to be involved but an app that passes information to the parent, essentially bypassing the child, is disempowering to the child. The child should know and be able to tell you she has a math test. If she is not good at managing that sort of thing, then she needs to get better. Using an app to circumvent the child’s own management of that stuff is at least similar to micromanaging.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#72

Post by wingerlang » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

arp242 wrote: post #12

rockbruno wrote: post #5

Funny that they were so concerned about GDPR violations given that in Sweden everyone's address/job/phone/salary is public and easily accessible. I like it that every time a foreigner joins my company (I live in Sweden) it's a matter of time before they post a message in our Stockholm channel saying "guys... what the hell is this website and why am I in it?". Then the swedes mention that they see nothing wrong with i…

Wait, who publishes this information, and why? Address/phone is somewhat standard phonebook stuff (or at least, used to be; less so now I guess) but job and salary?!

Where is job and salary noted? I don't think it is, just taxes paid. At least that's what I understand ratsit has (never ACTUALLY looked at it though).

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#73

Post by urvader » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

taylodl wrote: post #22

The first thing that jumps out is Sweden has a national identity system, BankID. The APIs appear to be protected using those credentials. With that in mind I have two questions: 1. Who owns the data? 2. Should public funds be used for the creation of private APIs that manage the data? The answer to (1) has consequences for (2). I think many HN readers, including myself, and certainly these parents would argue that th…

(I am Christian Landgren, cofounder of the project)

You are right, the city believes they have ownership of the data, mainly because they fail to understand that they aren’t showing data in an app, but rather publishing data in an API. In Swedish law, once you have released data from a government, the receiver have the right to do whatever they want with the that data (as long as it isn’t violating any other laws).

The city in this case is responsible to check that the data is safe to share publicly and once they have- the data is not theirs. This is regulated in the constitutional law regulating free speech which goes back to year 1766.

This means that they can’t really apply the same logic as a private company can when publishing data in their api. A private company can still keep license over what can be done with the data they publish. A city can not do that because of these constitutional laws.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#74

Post by chasil » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

locallost wrote: post #29

> The platform is a complex system that’s made up of three different parts, containing 18 individual modules that are maintained by five external companies. The sprawling system is used by 600 preschools and 177 schools, with separate logins for every teacher, student, and parent. The only problem? It doesn’t work. > The Skolplattform, which has cost more than 1 billion Swedish Krona, SEK, ($117 million), has failed…

What is particularly insulting is the needless API/URL changes made in the official app in order to sabotage the efforts of the parents.

The Google Play listing should have had a "Mismanagement Count" prominently displayed that incremented every time this happened. The log, and the time spent, should be in court.

The parents decided to build this front end for free. They did not decide to play hide and seek with the interfaces, and for this they deserve compensation.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#75

Post by MobiusHorizons » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #58

ghaff wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic with the public sector is that "the people" are paying for it so it's their business where the money is going. I'm not personally much of a fan of private sector salaries, income tax paid, etc. being a matter of public record but it's also not obviously "crazy" either. There are reasonable debates about transparency at the margins and this is a margin.

I genuinely do not see a downside of publicly available salary information. What am I missing and/or not thinking about?

In general I think it would be a good thing as well, but there are some downsides that come to mind.

For example, seeking new employment your new employer would be able to see your previous salary. That means people who start out in the lower wage markets could have a much harder time improving their salaries.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#76

Post by addicted » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #27

enumjorge wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the main point of your comment but calling the people trying to shut this down “authoritarian dictators” erodes the meaning of the phrase.

s/authoritarian dictators/power hungry, desperate to remain in power/

Or, far more likely, people who don’t understand this stuff worried that they are gonna get sued because they let private data be accessed illegally.

And I’m sure the vendor they paid a billion to also had sales people insisting that what the open source people were doing was illegal.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#77

Post by ghaff » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #70

ghaff wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I make $50K more than you. And, in your opinion, you're a harder worker than me, are more valuable, etc. On the one hand, yes, that is perhaps fodder for you to have a conversation with your manager. On the other hand, it's also fodder to go home and grumble about how underappreciated you are because your coworker who doesn't do crap as far as you're concerned but makes a bunch more than you do. Not saying either…

I still don't see a downside. If I know I am a better employee than you, and you make that much more, if I am unwilling to do anything about it but grumble, that's a personal problem. I would argue that anyone who is willing to stay in a shit situation without trying to remedy said situation (being underpaid and knowing it for a fact) sort of brought those problems on themselves. It's a problem to complain about only…

It boils down to what people consider personal information. I don't especially want to share this information (nor lots of other things about my personal life) and that's my decision to make absent public policy that goes in a different direction. So it's a downside to me simply because I don't think my salary or many other things are any of your business.

Also you don't know you're a better employee than me. You think you are but you may not even be aware of a bunch of stuff I do.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#78

Post by addicted » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 2:54 PM UTC

silicon2401 wrote: post #31

rockbruno wrote: post #5

Funny that they were so concerned about GDPR violations given that in Sweden everyone's address/job/phone/salary is public and easily accessible. I like it that every time a foreigner joins my company (I live in Sweden) it's a matter of time before they post a message in our Stockholm channel saying "guys... what the hell is this website and why am I in it?". Then the swedes mention that they see nothing wrong with i…

Places like Sweden, Japan, Taiwan are often touted as examples of why XYZ works. However people often fail to mention that these places are, relative to many countries like the US, extremely homogenous in culture and ethnicity. Certain things that work in those countries will fall apart when attempted in a more diverse country.

Yeah, no. This is a very outdated stereotype. Sweden, for example, is already very diverse and is getting increasingly more so.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#79

Post by tata71 » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

tantalor wrote: post #40

JackFr wrote: post #36

"We don't have an open API" Sure you do. You just don't know it yet.

This could be a variant of http://hyrumslaw.com JackFr's law: With sufficiently angered users of a private API, they will build an better, open API around it.

The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. John Gilmour

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#80

Post by ftrobro » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #47

merpnderp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salary? How could that being public serve the public's interest? As a privacy advocate that does pique my curiosity.

I would ask the opposite question -- why is that an important number to conceal? (Please no "it's none of your business" replies, that doesn't really answer the question and it's not an interesting direction to go.)

It puts a target on the back of anyone that earns a lot of money but doesn't live in a high security bunker. Sometimes foreign crminals make a quick tour in Sweden, rob a couple of rich people in their homes and then get out of the country in the same day, with no risk of ever being caught. Public records and GPS navigation make this all too easy.

Senior citizens are also targeted by criminals in Sweden, because the age and address of almost all citizens is publicly available. They might be visited by a couple who ask for a glass of water or whatever, and then one of the visitors distract the senior citizen while the other searches the place for jewelry.