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Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

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Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if it's the case with whales, bit as far as I know there is no recorded use of questions in the animal kingdom - all communication seems to be enunciative, or orders. Questions are exclusive to humans...

TIL - I expected that the chimpanzee sign language experiments would be a counterexample, but apparently the (IMHO surprising) lack of question usage was one of their outcomes.

Yup. I knew it because I fell in a Wikipedia rabbit hole about animal intelligence not long ago.

It was very intriguing to me, as someone with no previous knowledge, how this was assumed to be an only human trait yet the fact was pretty much glossed over.

I find fascinating the idea of a step between being stuck with the information that others emit and being able to and request arbitrary information at will, being part of what made us what we are. Once you think about it, it really is an amazing advantage.

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#72
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If a lion could speak we wouldn't understand him." - Wittgenstein https://ideasandaction.com/if-a-lion-could-speak/

Wouldn't simple sentences with the structure subject-verb-object be universal to any rational speaker? A lion could say "I want food", or "I see dog", or "dog eats food". I don't see why a lion's worldview could be so different from ours that this wouldn't be possible.

SVO isn't even universal in human languages.

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To hunt a species to extinction is not logical. Edit: Because the topic is about communicating with Whales and my response was to a comment about hunting them, I thought it would be appropriate to reference something Spock said in Star Trek IV. Colloquially known as "The one with the whales".

It is logical if the species poses an existential threat. Consider our efforts to eradicate certain diseases caused by bacteria.

Viruses, anyway.

Nobody who knows basic biology has any illusions about the prospect of driving even a single species of bacteria to extinction.

And anyway Russia probably still stockpiles literal tons of smallpox virus frozen underground in Siberian laboratories.

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#74

God I cannot wait to talk to whales. Their oral histories must be incredible. People have fantasized about communicating with extraterrestrials for ages. I don't understand why we haven't invested significant resources in trying to communicate with the other animals on our own planet. What an incredibly weird and non translatable experience it will be to (finally?!) start this adventure with whales. Tangent time. If…

I mean.. hate to be a party pooper, but just because we created a the equivalent of gpt3 for whales, does that mean we can do anything useful? Like talking to whales.. we haven't even established how their language works.

What language even is, is a good question. I read it once demonstrated as this; some species of monkey has a specific call they do when they see a panther, and it results in all the monkeys who hear it to run up their trees. Now what does this call mean? It could mean "jaguar alert!", pointing to a very specific concept-- a certain animal is here and we all know they're dangerous.

It could also mean "I'm scared!", and maybe it's just monkey see monkey do. It could also mean something more abstract, like a blood curdling scream-- there's no one thing that it means, but as humans we instinctively know that people don't scream like that unless something legitimately awful is happening. So maybe the call communicates emotion rather than an intellectual concept-- it's a call of fear that makes other monkeys who hear it also scared.

Just breaking down what animal language even _is_, is a challenge. I'm not optimistic on hearing any oral histories of whales, or even that they record history. I mean humans only started recording history for its own sake like 2000 years ago with herodotus. Before then we have tablets to keep track of stock, letters, and murals which were often made to depict the strength of the reigning emperor and the foes he vanquished. So maybe if we talk to whales it'll be a little like if aliens came to ancient Egypt to talk to the pharaoh; we'll just get a dictator whale telling us about all the other whales he's killed and how he's the greatest.. haha probably not that, though.

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#75
post #27
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should probably pick “whoops, our bad” as one of the early translation goals.

Then the whales will learn not to trust anything we say. Happened to indigenous people in the Americas.

"White Man speak with forked tongue".

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#77

God I cannot wait to talk to whales. Their oral histories must be incredible. People have fantasized about communicating with extraterrestrials for ages. I don't understand why we haven't invested significant resources in trying to communicate with the other animals on our own planet. What an incredibly weird and non translatable experience it will be to (finally?!) start this adventure with whales. Tangent time. If…

They will sing us the song of the great holocaust of the 1800s, of the day the metal surface whales turned the skies red and nothing could save them.

Personally I want to know if they still tell tales of the hero whale who killed one of the ships in 1820: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_(whaleship)

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#78
post #70
post #2

Whale: “Hey, I found some fish.” Whale Eliza: “Interesting. How does that make you feel? Whale: “What the fuck?”

You should look up the Far Side comic where a professor invents a dog translator. Turns out the only thing dogs say is 'Hey! Hey! Hey!'.

I can easily believe that's actually true.

Dogs would probably be equally disappointed to learn that they only thing we glean from how they smell is that they need a shower!

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#79
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If a lion could speak we wouldn't understand him." - Wittgenstein https://ideasandaction.com/if-a-lion-could-speak/

Wouldn't simple sentences with the structure subject-verb-object be universal to any rational speaker? A lion could say "I want food", or "I see dog", or "dog eats food". I don't see why a lion's worldview could be so different from ours that this wouldn't be possible.

Just to problems off the top of my head;

In order to understand "I" you have to be able to understand there's an "other". Do lions understand others are also fully capable beings? Or are they kinda of "egotistical" the way a human baby is, where they just don't really understand the concept of "other people".

And do they understand what "seeing" is, so that they can use it in a sentence like that? That's also abstract, it communicates that you as a being are using your sense of sight to see a certain thing. Are lions conscious of the fact that they're seeing, or do they just see things?

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#80

God I cannot wait to talk to whales. Their oral histories must be incredible. People have fantasized about communicating with extraterrestrials for ages. I don't understand why we haven't invested significant resources in trying to communicate with the other animals on our own planet. What an incredibly weird and non translatable experience it will be to (finally?!) start this adventure with whales. Tangent time. If…

Brain size may not necessarily correlate with intelligence because it isn't the number of neurons, it's the organization and optimization of them. Just like we make much more powerful CPU chips in the same volume of silicon as before. And it could be that it just isn't necessary for whales to optimize brain density, like it is for humans and crows.

I’ve read various stats about the human brain using a surprising percentage of our overall energy budget. I wonder how much energy a whale brain uses (overall and per kg)? While it’s not the only relevant stat, TDP does provide a clue as to processing power.
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