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All Applications for Nuclear Energy at COP26 Rejected

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Re: All Applications for Nuclear Energy at COP26 Rejected

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rare earths are not rare, you can even order online. Try that with enriched uranium.

Sure but wouldn’t we need to mine exponentially less uranium? How many tons of neodymium need to be mined for wind turbines to produce the equivalent output of a nuclear reactor, for example.

That's an interesting question, actually, and the numbers seem difficult to come by. A master's thesis from 2011 says[0]:

"data on the amount of rare earths in wind turbines vary, ranging from 0.2 to 3.3 kg of neodymium content per kW of rated capacity"

For comparison, a nuclear power station generates[1]:

"24,000,000 kWh from 1 kg of uranium-235"

So, taking the lower estimate for the neodymium content, the wind turbine would have to produce energy for 0.2 x 24,000,000 hours to be as efficient in terms of mass. That's about 548 years. Even with recycling, that's a longer term commitment than some nuclear waste storage proposals, although with less of a proliferation risk.

[0] https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/153229259.pdf

[1] https://www.euronuclear.org/glossary/fuel-comparison/

Re: All Applications for Nuclear Energy at COP26 Rejected

#72
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With renewables baseline doesn’t make sense. Nuclear doesn’t combine well with renewables, not in a way that would complete the picture. Meaning: you can’t build something that works with only those two building blocks. Even more: baseline is not at all needed with renewables. Renewables need to be combined with power sources that can be turned on and off quickly and on demand. Nuclear emphatically cannot provide tha…

> Renewables need to be combined with power sources that can be turned on and off quickly and on demand. No they don’t. Wind and solar energy output can be very well predicted for hours and days ahead.

OK, lots of downvotes and no replies. HN becomes very toxic these days.

Re: All Applications for Nuclear Energy at COP26 Rejected

#73
I am a fan of nuclear energy for various reasons, and it's obvious that the safety and waste problems can be solved with new technology like small modular reactors with inherently safe designs.

However, even I realize that nuclear energy is not viable to significantly combat climate change due to the following reasons:

* The technology is not there yet. There are a lot of promising companies that are trying to solve the safety problem, and there is a lot of research on how to better deal with the waste, but due to the inherent dangers it will take decades to prove these designs are safe, work as intended and can be produced at a significant scale at the promised cost. Sadly, we don't have decades, we need to start replacing coal right now.

* nuclear energy is way to expensive. Wind and solar are much cheaper. current numbers are roughly 50% cheaper for renewables, and while lots of companies promise cheaper nuclear design, these claims are unproven and the renewables are also still significantly improving in cost. The nuclear cost models I've seen also ignore most of the storage and security cost for handling the waste for millenia. There are cheaper alternatives with existing and proven technology. Power to gas for example has an efficiency of roughly 50%. which funny enough corresponds to its cost advantage over nuclear. simply building a lot more wind and solar capacity and using power to gas to fill existing gas storage systems with excess energy from renewables has roughly the same cost as nuclear, without the safety and proliferation headache, and the added advantage of long term storage.

* proliferation. even if we could solve the problem of safeguarding thousands of SMR in developed countries, you can't just export them to every country on earth. however, that's a requirement for replacing coal, as those countries need to reduce emissions, too.

So yeah, I'd love molten salt SMR to be a thing, and they probably will be in some applications in developed countries in 10-20 years, but the value of this to combat climate change is minimal and people who think otherwise are ignoring the previously mentioned facts.

Re: All Applications for Nuclear Energy at COP26 Rejected

#74
post #54
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because the U.S. isn't Iceland or Norway? No country is actually running on solar and wind -- it's too variable. Norway is running on Hydro, Iceland is running on geothermal.

Newer data says otherwise. https://twitter.com/mzjacobson/status/1452771074119135237 And variability is easy to deal with: overbuild and/or storage. Southern Australia shows how it is done.

> Newer data says otherwise

OK, GLWT.

> And variability is easy to deal with: overbuild and/or storage. Southern Australia shows how it is done.

Australian energy is 72% fossil fuel, 11% hydro, rest solar and wind.

https://www.worlddata.info/australia/australia/energy-consum...

Re: All Applications for Nuclear Energy at COP26 Rejected

#75
I don't think the applications for nuclear energy were rejected for the reasons being implied by the original article. This article[1] mentions that they weren't accepted because they missed the submission deadline.

> According to Kirsty Gogan, cofounder of TerraPraxis and a senior climate and energy advisor to the U.K. government, “All three Green Zone applications by nuclear groups were rejected.” However, it seems some of that may be due to miscommunication regarding application deadlines for the COP26 Green Zone.

I couldn't find the original source for the miscommunication on application deadlines, hopefully someone can find it.

[1] https://www.ans.org/news/article-3188/controversy-over-nucle...

Re: All Applications for Nuclear Energy at COP26 Rejected

#76

What about drilling for geothermal energy? And what about thermal fusion which is upcoming? For what do we need fission any longer, except to bridge the time up to availability of fusion? As long there is no good concept for the nuclear waste, that long nuclear shouldn't be praised as solution to anything, except for bridging. There have been news on here, for a newly developed technique to "recycle" and/or to "treat…

Nuclear fusion is upcoming for 30 years and we did tiny steps so far.

Except if there is a breakthrough, it will take so much time (if it works at all) that we will need new nuclear plants.

The safety and ecology of nuclear plants has been discussed to death. I much prefer to live near a nuclear plant than anything combustion.

Re: All Applications for Nuclear Energy at COP26 Rejected

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CO2 is only emitted during mining and refining because the grid itself isn't clean. The same thing is true of solar panels and batteries until the grid is made green. But you can't say "we can't make green tech because it would produce CO2" as it completely ignores the lifetime of things. > in storing nuclear waste for 100000 years That's a red herring. You only need to store nuclear waste for around 100 years (or le…

Wow, just avoided all of the points with what-about answers

No, they're not what-about answers. They're cause and effect. Germany's coal sector is growing BECAUSE of shutting down it's nuclear sector.

The other points are simply false (nuclear waste isn't dangerous for nearly as long, and his CO2 comment is actually a "what-about" complaint as a reason to not want nuclear power).

Re: All Applications for Nuclear Energy at COP26 Rejected

#78
post #46

Good. Focus on renewables + storage. Anything else is too costly and too late. (BTW, 10 countries are running on 95%-100% renewables now. Why can't the US?)

Can you share what is your storage solution that will be needed to make renewables without coal and gas practical? Where can I see storage handling gigawatthours to terawatthours in the real world?

Or are you relying on some magical technology we don't have?

Re: All Applications for Nuclear Energy at COP26 Rejected

#79
post #6
post #3

It's so frustrating seeing nuclear pitted against renewables, while fossil fuel powerplants are still operating/being built, whose baseline power could be replaced by nuclear. But somehow the idea took hold that nuclear would be built instead of solar, and not instead of coal.

With renewables baseline doesn’t make sense. Nuclear doesn’t combine well with renewables, not in a way that would complete the picture. Meaning: you can’t build something that works with only those two building blocks. Even more: baseline is not at all needed with renewables. Renewables need to be combined with power sources that can be turned on and off quickly and on demand. Nuclear emphatically cannot provide tha…

> Renewables need to be combined with power sources that can be turned on and off quickly and on demand. Nuclear emphatically cannot provide that.

That's true of current nuclear, but it's not an intrinsic property of nuclear power. Proposed plants that use molten salt as a working fluid, for example, give you the option to run the plant all the time, but at any given time either use the heat in the molten salt for power generation immediately, or move the molten salt into a storage tank for later use. Molten salt is already used this way in concentrated solar plants, and works fine for that purpose.

Re: All Applications for Nuclear Energy at COP26 Rejected

#80

So a lot of the discussions here are around EU or US opinions about nuclear power. The problem is something entirely different. India and China will move to emphatically reject coal restrictions during COP26. Remember India has probably some of the largest investments in renewable rightnow. But I dont think people outside of these countries have even an idea of the amount of hunger for power that is being generated a…

China can build nuclear power plants and indeed is building a large number of them.

But as you mention the demand for energy is vast and they can't 'just' get rid of coal.

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