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Book review: The Checklist Manifesto

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Re: Book review: The Checklist Manifesto

#71

Post by kqr »

blamazon wrote: post #41
kmt-lnh wrote: post #16

Gawande mentions the checklist libraries of different manufacturers. I've checked the references (and parts of the citation graph) but didn't find anything about them. The closest were NASA's standards about the typography and structure of flight deck checklist. Does anybody know about how are checklists managed in the real word? How are they stored, retrieved and most importantly updated, when something changes? Not…

There are firms that specialize in software to do exactly what you’re describing. But a lot of it is just cultural. For example, how do you make sure checklists are updated? You hire people whose sole job is to update checklists. One example of a software firm in this space: https://www.fieldlogs.com/FieldLogsStatic/index.html

Wait, you don't build an X culture by creating an X department staffed with people whose sole job is to do X.

If you are serious about X, you do indeed need an X culture, but you get that by making it everyone's job to do X.

Creating an X department staffed with X people will have the exact opposite outcome.

Re: Book review: The Checklist Manifesto

#72

Post by hobofan »

sundarurfriend wrote: post #69
vincentmarle wrote: post #2

> Making a good human-usable checklist takes a lot of workshopping. Airlines are still constantly revising their 200-page manual of individually optimized checklists for every possible emergency, as plane designs change and new safety data rolls in. When I first read the book a couple years ago, and introduced checklists into my team, I found that there was no great tool to manage and create checklists and share it w…

I came across this: https://columns.app/ some time ago. Neat attractive design, and a bunch of interesting features.

Looking through the feature set I don't see repeatable, templated checklists as a feature. Every app has normal checklists nowadays, but there are basically no solutions for repeatable ones (which is what the article/book are talking about).

Re: Book review: The Checklist Manifesto

#73

Post by aidenn0 »

So I was following the service manual for changing oil in my wife's car. From memory it was something like this:

1. Place drip pan belo

2. Remove plug & drain

3. Use wrench to remove filter

4. Place new filter in

5. Replace plug

6. Unscrew oil fill port cap

7. Add 5 quarts of oil

8. Run engine for 5 minutes

9. Top up oil until level is correct as indicated on dip stick

Notice there is an important step missing between #7 and #8 (replacing the oil fill port cap). I think I changed the oil twice with no issue before I made that mistake and sprayed oil everywhere. I wrote up my own instructions that broke it down into smaller steps and didn't omit any after that.

Re: Book review: The Checklist Manifesto

#74

Post by NortySpock »

rurp wrote: post #55
throwaway192874 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most project management systems have methods for dealing with checklists, this is definitely not what slack is designed to do no matter how much they market it as a "productivity tool" So if you're not using something for project management first you need one of those, but just about everyone does, and once you have one you can start using it's checklist features Then it depends on what that specific software offers,…

Is there a way to use checklists in Confluence in a way that's not terrible? My team has a checklist we go through regularly and have to use Confluence for this sort of thing. While you can make checklists in there, we can't find a way to make the check marks ephemeral. Every single time someone checks an item it updates and saves the page. We also can't find a "clear all" button. So every time we go through the chec…

> use checklists... in a way that's not terrible?

A disposable piece of paper and an ink pen? Confluence seemed to have a PDF export button so I assume it's possible.

Re: Book review: The Checklist Manifesto

#75

Post by tailspin2019 »

bumby wrote: post #52
axpy906 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we’ve lost the plot. The important thing is if you can recall and then use what’s in the book. If it takes repetition or length to do it, so be it. Some books even recommend you read them a second time for that purpose, like Getting Things Done and How To Win Friends and Influence People.

I think for the layman, those anecdotes that strike on pathos are what sticks. I remember the stories about patients who avoid mishaps through checklists that caught the wrong limb being marked and their (understandably) irate reaction more than statistics.

This is exactly what I remember from the book.

I actually think this book is one of the rarer examples where the various stories and anecdotes that are sometimes seen (rightly) as “padding”, are actually in this case quite effective at getting the message across in quite a memorable way.

It’s been a while since I read it but I seem to recall a lot of similarly effective stories about airline pilots too.

Re: Book review: The Checklist Manifesto

#76

Post by superasn »

On a related note there is a bungee jumping spot in Taupo where the guys harnessing you sing like a small song which has lyrics of a checklist to make sure every lock is secured (They test each lock at the appropriate lyric)

It's kinda nice and funny and definitely gets the job done as lives depend on making sure all locks are secured.

Re: Book review: The Checklist Manifesto

#77

Post by WalterBright »

axpy906 wrote: post #49
tablespoon wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Here's a few good points and ideas, surrounded by a fuck-ton of anecdotes and proverbs, because you're not going to pay $20 for a magazine article." Though to be fair, sometimes those anecdotes are useful. I like examples, especially ones where an idea is applied to a situation that resembles my own. Also repetition is helpful to actually have a concept sink in. Also, what's filler for you may be the most relevant…

I think we’ve lost the plot. The important thing is if you can recall and then use what’s in the book. If it takes repetition or length to do it, so be it. Some books even recommend you read them a second time for that purpose, like Getting Things Done and How To Win Friends and Influence People.

A book needs to be read 10-15 times in order to internalize it. Otherwise, when you're in the moment, you'll forget and revert to your usual pattern.

Re: Book review: The Checklist Manifesto

#78

Post by WalterBright »

seanwilson wrote: post #59
larrywright wrote: post #4

I liked this book, but it’s a prime example of an article or blog post that gets turned into a book by adding a bunch of things that don’t really provide more useful information, but seem to serve as filler to make it book-length. I read the book, and I read the article that the book was based on. I don’t recall learning anything from the book that I hadn’t already learned from the article.

> it’s a prime example of an article or blog post that gets turned into a book by adding a bunch of things that don’t really provide more useful information, but seem to serve as filler to make it book-length. I've seen solo technical authors trying to sell concise ~100 page books and you often see comments like "that's too expensive, you can read it in a few hours and ebooks don't cost anything to produce!", ignorin…

Have you ever noticed that most books seem to be the same size? Book publishers manage this by:

1. adjusting the paper thickness

2. adjusting the font size

3. adjusting the line spacing

4. adjusting the margins

5. adding blank pages

The actual amount of text in a book varies dramatically.

Re: Book review: The Checklist Manifesto

#79

Post by lovemenot »

superasn wrote: post #76

On a related note there is a bungee jumping spot in Taupo where the guys harnessing you sing like a small song which has lyrics of a checklist to make sure every lock is secured (They test each lock at the appropriate lyric) It's kinda nice and funny and definitely gets the job done as lives depend on making sure all locks are secured.

Much of the elaboeate gesturing that is done by Japanese train drivers and platform staff is them mentally ticking off items. The movements makes it rote. So no need to recall the next step which is embedded in muscle memory.

Re: Book review: The Checklist Manifesto

#80

Post by MadeThisToReply »

larrywright wrote: post #4

I liked this book, but it’s a prime example of an article or blog post that gets turned into a book by adding a bunch of things that don’t really provide more useful information, but seem to serve as filler to make it book-length. I read the book, and I read the article that the book was based on. I don’t recall learning anything from the book that I hadn’t already learned from the article.

Having read the book, I fully agree. Atul Gawande is obviously a smart guy, and the book is very readable, but I gained almost nothing from reading it that I couldn't have gained by just reading the LW article linked in the OP. Not recommended.
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