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Bitcoin consumes 2nd highest electricity per capita

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Re: Bitcoin consumes 2nd highest electricity per capita

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you really incapable of understanding that bitcoin might not be a waste? Quite capable of understanding, thank you. I just think you're wrong.

Agree with parent, I think you might not understand what is going on. At what point would you admit you are wrong? $100K/BTC? $1M/BTC? I will gladly accept that I got it wrong at $0/BTC, hell I’d go as low as $100/BTC. Who is going to be correct?

"Waste" is not disproven by "high price". "Waste" (in this context, at least) would be disproven by bitcoin fixing much of javert's second through fifth paragraphs. My money is on "waste", no matter what the price does.

Re: Bitcoin consumes 2nd highest electricity per capita

#72
post #17

The tweet makes an assumption that there are 10 million people holding bitcoin, and the tweet goes on to imply that this is actually an overestimate. The first google result for "how many people hold bitcoins" says that an estimated 46 million Americans own bitcoin. The huge inaccuracy shows the author's bias and kills the credibility of the rest of the thread.

On the other hand, the vast majority of anyone holding any bitcoin are not making transactions, so the electricity per person using bitcoin over any medium sized window is probably vastly higher.

For example, in Jan 23 million bitcoin wallets had transactions. Since many actors hold multiple wallets, this would imply not so many active bitcoin users. [1]

Per capita could mean anyone who has ever touched it in any way, or could mean someone who actually uses it reasonably often.

[1] https://decrypt.co/56188/bitcoin-hit-record-number-of-22-3-m...

Re: Bitcoin consumes 2nd highest electricity per capita

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with parent, I think you might not understand what is going on. At what point would you admit you are wrong? $100K/BTC? $1M/BTC? I will gladly accept that I got it wrong at $0/BTC, hell I’d go as low as $100/BTC. Who is going to be correct?

"Waste" is not disproven by "high price". "Waste" (in this context, at least) would be disproven by bitcoin fixing much of javert's second through fifth paragraphs. My money is on "waste", no matter what the price does.

Yeah see you don’t get it :-) one mans waste is another mans gold. Basically you don’t want to accept others value things differently than yourself, right?

Re: Bitcoin consumes 2nd highest electricity per capita

#74
post #18

If you want to get a read on the "Reduce your carbon footprint" camp's success, check out the top selling vehicle in America (1) Treating this as a "crypto problem" and not a general energy / fuels problem does almost nothing but sell clicks / views / newspapers. Trying to contribute here though on where we really are in crypto and angles of attack for discussion, vs an alarmist view: 1) BTC maximalists don't care an…

The network is designed to consume all available resources until it achieves financial equilibrium. It produces junk computations and heat. It does this very well. I'm glad its helped some people, but you can talk about 'BTC maximalists' all you like it still doesn't address that bitcoin is fundamentally a huge resource sink.

Re: Bitcoin consumes 2nd highest electricity per capita

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Waste" is not disproven by "high price". "Waste" (in this context, at least) would be disproven by bitcoin fixing much of javert's second through fifth paragraphs. My money is on "waste", no matter what the price does.

Yeah see you don’t get it :-) one mans waste is another mans gold. Basically you don’t want to accept others value things differently than yourself, right?

If you "value things differently", that's fine. Some people value bitcoin; some value gold, some value Andy Warhol paintings. And that's fine. "It's differences of opinion that make horse races."

But javert laid out this grand vision of what bitcoin was going to do for us, and it was considerably more than "be a good investment" or "be something that people like". And he implied I was too stupid to understand it, which is... not cool. I understood exactly what he said the case for bitcoin was. I remain skeptical that it's going to achieve that, ever.

And if it doesn't, then... it's a waste in terms of the lofty goals that bitcoin proponents have stated, no matter how people valued it financially.

Re: Bitcoin consumes 2nd highest electricity per capita

#76
post #67
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scarcity is built in, yes .. but block reward halving is built in as well. Now if there were a time to come, when lightning network allowed wide adoption of bitcoin as an actual payment system ... and the speculation on ever rising price were obsolete, because the price was more or less stable ... then the limited mining rewards would put a stop to exponential growth in energy expenditure. Where do I get it wrong? (S…

The supply dictates the price. Thought experiment: Imagine any item with a certain amount of demand. Now cut the supply of that good in half. What happens to the price? If the supply gets cut in half, then cut in half again, and again, what happens? If we accept that the mining reward is the "supply" then we can see that it should cause continual increases. As for the already-emitted supply, you can essentially ignor…

> Imagine any item with a certain amount of demand. Now cut the supply of that good in half. What happens to the price?

IMO the assumption/premise here doesn't describe the situation ("bitcoin" or more broadly "currency") in a precise enough way to make this a useful thought experiment.

Ordinary people don't really demand money per se. They work or sell goods/services and get paid money for that and they spend money to get other goods/services in return. There's no demand for money itself, it's just a means of exchange and value storage. Now of course, everyone would like to have a little more of this "item", but that's not what demand is, really. Or would you also say there is demand for USD and if the FED doesn't meet this demand by issuing more USD then the price for USD increases? I'd say that's just deflation due to the supply of goods having increased (in a growing economy) in comparison to the currency.

> So you've got a dwindling supply flow, that causes higher prices, ...

Yep, prices are going to rise ... but as with most things in the observable world there'll likely be some kind of dynamic equilibrium. Let the price rise to 1M and combine that with the fact that even HODLers won't live forever (to wait for even higher prices) and you'll see many of them buy actual goods/services with their btc ... and what does that mean? Yep, there you have your supply and circulation of btc. People have real life needs and can't just wait for deflation to enable them to buy two new fridges in a year instead of one right now when the old one went silent. Let the price rise to 10M and you'll see even more HODLers become buyers .. yes, there are some greedy HODLers out there (who probably prefer dreaming about what they can buy in the future over buying something now), but still, they will spend some and thus slow down the theoretically exponential price curve.

So no, I'm absolutely convinced that the price won't develop exponentially over the long term. Exponential price increase equates exponentially increased incentive to spend .. which is essentially direct negative feedback which leads to some sort of equilibrium. And I strongly doubt that this simple mechanism is the only negative feedback mechanism for the price of bitcoin.

Yes, bitcoin as a currency would have a deflationary nature. Which should mean that it nudges people to postpone purchases a little bit into the future rather than spend as quickly as possible .. which to me sounds much more like reasonable economic behaviour (from a sustainability point of view) in light of the current planetary environmental situation, compared to a monetary system that incentivises putting money back into the economy as quickly as possible.

Ultimately, many aspects of society will probably function as a negative feedback loop for the price of bitcoin, since bitcoin isn't the only use for energy. It competes with other uses that are much closer to what people actually really need and can't do without. Like riding a train or using an electrical stove. People aren't going to stop riding trains because they could use the energy to mine bitcoin instead.

No, the exponential scheme would IMO only apply in some very limited economic model where all these real world negative feedback effects were left out.

Clearly, the outcome you describe (consuming 1/10 of the world's energy supply) is inacceptable. But since this outcome is based upon assumptions that (IMO) don't adequately reflect reality, it's not valuable for assessing whether bitcoin might be useful enough to legitimize its energy consumption.

Re: Bitcoin consumes 2nd highest electricity per capita

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah see you don’t get it :-) one mans waste is another mans gold. Basically you don’t want to accept others value things differently than yourself, right?

If you "value things differently", that's fine. Some people value bitcoin; some value gold, some value Andy Warhol paintings. And that's fine. "It's differences of opinion that make horse races." But javert laid out this grand vision of what bitcoin was going to do for us, and it was considerably more than "be a good investment" or "be something that people like". And he implied I was too stupid to understand it, whi…

> And he implied I was too stupid to understand it, which is... not cool

I'm sorry. I don't think you're too stupid.

It's just that at this point, "Bitcoin is a waste of electricity" comes across as trollish behavior. We've all seen that a million times. It's been explained a million times why that arguably isn't the case. So either engage with the actual argument people are having, or don't say anything.

Saying "bitcoin is a waste of electricity" doesn't contribute to the conversation at all anymore. It's the exact equivalent of posting a comment that says "boo bitcoin" or "bitcoin sucks."

So yeah, if you say that, I'm going to poke at you. And then I'm going to give you the actual argument, in case you haven't seen it. As I did.

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