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How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

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Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#71

Post by dimitrios1 »

Sebb767 wrote: post #64
OneEyedRobot wrote: post #46

What ticks me off no end is the folks who (often successfully) fight against physician assisted suicide. Dementia is the interesting test case, but I think should still be allowed. With all the talk about 'controlling our bodies' in terms of abortion, and I can see both sides of that one, your own life is the one thing you really own. To have that control taken away is the worst kind of insult by the state.

I think the core problem is giving out a "free pass" to kill people. Very few people (at least in my experience) think that assisted suicide itself is bad, but the abuse potential is massive. And the action is, by definition, irreversible. Plus, the people that need this are (quite obviously) unable to make this happen on their own. So this comes with the additional moral qualms of whether this is really what the wan…

And we see how this has worked out for abortion. The 0.10% case of either saving a woman's life or in cases of rape and incest as turned into the justification for aborting 189 babies for every 1000 live births -- or in the african american community 487 babies for every 1000 live births.

Once you open the flood gates, you will have plenty who kill themselves who otherwise wouldn't with just a little bit of extra support.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#72

Post by pochekailov »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #70
pochekailov wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood people who defend death If there is a tiger chasing you, wouldn't you try to escape or fight? Or just give up and let the tiger eat you? It is natural, tiger also want to eat, right?

If your mental image of people who support the notion of death is people who are just apathetically suicidal, then you're missing the point.

No, my point is that I personally am very afraid of death, and would fight death from the selfish reasons.

People who support the notion of death seem not to constantly fear it themselves, but view it as something hypothetical, that they wouldn't have to face themselves in the near future (likely several decades).

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#73

Post by noduerme »

I don't know how much this still applies, but in the 80s and 90s it also seemed like doctors and nurses smoked a lot more than the average population. Maybe it just seemed that way because you just saw them outside hospitals smoking in groups, but I remember driving by a childrens hospital once, and my father, an ex-smoker, saying they were all out there because they were accustomed to seeing death and weren't afraid of it.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#74

Post by WalterBright »

foolinaround wrote: post #24
WalterBright wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, my sister was told to put her affairs in order. She did the major surgery and the chemo, and just passed 10 years cancer free. Odds of her outcome were something like 5%. She's well aware of how lucky she is.

the age of your sister at the time of sickness should factor in, right?

49

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#75

Post by WalterBright »

magicalist wrote: post #27
foolinaround wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the age of your sister at the time of sickness should factor in, right?

And the type of treatment

Multiple operations to remove metastasized tumors followed by conventional chemo.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#76

Post by thatfrenchguy »

dimitrios1 wrote: post #71
Sebb767 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core problem is giving out a "free pass" to kill people. Very few people (at least in my experience) think that assisted suicide itself is bad, but the abuse potential is massive. And the action is, by definition, irreversible. Plus, the people that need this are (quite obviously) unable to make this happen on their own. So this comes with the additional moral qualms of whether this is really what the wan…

And we see how this has worked out for abortion. The 0.10% case of either saving a woman's life or in cases of rape and incest as turned into the justification for aborting 189 babies for every 1000 live births -- or in the african american community 487 babies for every 1000 live births. Once you open the flood gates, you will have plenty who kill themselves who otherwise wouldn't with just a little bit of extra sup…

And a lot better societal outcomes. Unwanted babies suck and end up having bad lives, negatively affecting their parents’ lives as well.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#77

Post by slg »

Sebb767 wrote: post #64
OneEyedRobot wrote: post #46

What ticks me off no end is the folks who (often successfully) fight against physician assisted suicide. Dementia is the interesting test case, but I think should still be allowed. With all the talk about 'controlling our bodies' in terms of abortion, and I can see both sides of that one, your own life is the one thing you really own. To have that control taken away is the worst kind of insult by the state.

I think the core problem is giving out a "free pass" to kill people. Very few people (at least in my experience) think that assisted suicide itself is bad, but the abuse potential is massive. And the action is, by definition, irreversible. Plus, the people that need this are (quite obviously) unable to make this happen on their own. So this comes with the additional moral qualms of whether this is really what the wan…

> but the abuse potential is massive.

How so? We don't have to create a system in which it is legal to shoot someone in the head and then claim they asked you to do it. Have it be a medical procedure that must be done in a hospital by government certified doctors. You can even require a psych evaluation before it becomes an option.

I can understand there being some gray area in which it isn't clear that the person has all their faculties to the point they can request it, but that shouldn't stop us from creating a system that works for all the obvious cases.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#78

Post by [deleted] »

adventured wrote: post #65
Johnny555 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't usually comment on downvotes, my guess is that the downvotes are because your question can come off as being insensitive. After someone tells you about the tragic death of both of his parents, maybe don't start a guessing game of what his mother died of even if your loved one died of that same disease.

The barrage of downvotes were typical HN assuming the worst (mindless insensitivity) rather than giving a benefit of the doubt about my intent. This, from HN's guidelines: Assume good faith. You won't see much of that on HN in my very long experience here. People so often jump right to assuming the worst, which is why that guideline exists. The assumption was that I was being insensitive, when the actuality was that…

[deleted]

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#79

Post by ehnto »

dimitrios1 wrote: post #71
Sebb767 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core problem is giving out a "free pass" to kill people. Very few people (at least in my experience) think that assisted suicide itself is bad, but the abuse potential is massive. And the action is, by definition, irreversible. Plus, the people that need this are (quite obviously) unable to make this happen on their own. So this comes with the additional moral qualms of whether this is really what the wan…

And we see how this has worked out for abortion. The 0.10% case of either saving a woman's life or in cases of rape and incest as turned into the justification for aborting 189 babies for every 1000 live births -- or in the african american community 487 babies for every 1000 live births. Once you open the flood gates, you will have plenty who kill themselves who otherwise wouldn't with just a little bit of extra sup…

There are other reasons people want to get abortions, such as knowing they can't provide for the child or give them a safe/stable household. Adoption is rare, and the foster system in most countries absolutely ruins kids. So those aren't good alternatives.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#80

Post by skissane »

Sebb767 wrote: post #64
OneEyedRobot wrote: post #46

What ticks me off no end is the folks who (often successfully) fight against physician assisted suicide. Dementia is the interesting test case, but I think should still be allowed. With all the talk about 'controlling our bodies' in terms of abortion, and I can see both sides of that one, your own life is the one thing you really own. To have that control taken away is the worst kind of insult by the state.

I think the core problem is giving out a "free pass" to kill people. Very few people (at least in my experience) think that assisted suicide itself is bad, but the abuse potential is massive. And the action is, by definition, irreversible. Plus, the people that need this are (quite obviously) unable to make this happen on their own. So this comes with the additional moral qualms of whether this is really what the wan…

> Very few people (at least in my experience) think that assisted suicide itself is bad, but the abuse potential is massive.

Many terminally ill people receive substandard palliative care, and want assisted suicide – it seems likely that at least some wouldn't want it any more (or might never have sought it in the first place) if their palliative care was better.

What are the ethics of saying to people "we aren't going to do anything to fix the substandard palliative care you are receiving, but we are happy to help you kill yourself"?

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