Flame from Bill Gates Re: Windows Usability • Hacker News Board

Re: Flame from Bill Gates Re: Windows Usability

#71

Post by code_duck » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 2:53 PM UTC

billmcneale wrote: post #67

lurker14 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People think the email is weird or unique because they are surprised that Bill Gates made 40 Billion dollars by running a company that builds products that bring intense pain to it users, and he appears to as frustrated as anyone else about the problem, and yet is completely powerless to stop it, even though he is in charge of everyone involved. It's bizarre to see someone who knows he is doing everything wrong and i…

> People think the email is weird or unique because they are surprised that Bill Gates made 40 Billion dollars by running a company that builds products that bring intense pain to it users, and he appears to as frustrated as anyone else about the problem, and yet is completely powerless to stop it, even though he is in charge of everyone involved. You're focusing on the negative and forgetting the positive. Yes, Wind…

>Yes, Windows can be counter-intuitive, but it has enabled millions of people in the world to be more productive. This is why most of the planet is using Windows.

Personal computers have enabled people to be productive, not Windows. And, the reason most people use Windows is largely for reasons other than the merits of the software.

Re: Flame from Bill Gates Re: Windows Usability

#72

Post by JeffffreyF » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 3:25 PM UTC

temphn wrote: post #48

JeffffreyF wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not at all hard, it's a philosophical problem. They simply believe their concerns are more important than the users. It's not hard or complicated, they're just philosophicaly fools because they believe what they want matters. It doesn't, and they can't wrap their heads around that. It doesn't at all when customers suffer because all they get depends on customers getting what they need. It's a simple concept that…

When Windows was better than the competition, it was winning in the marketplace. Now Google and Apple are better than the competition, so they are winning in the marketplace. Capitalism is working just fine. Unlike Microsoft, by contrast, the DMV has no competition and cannot go bankrupt. That's where things start to get very bad.

It is working, its just far, far from what its users really need. Just like Windows. All about a better user experience and we as leaders are missing the point. Nobody is setting a useful standard, nobody with power is looking at it from the bottom up, which is what separates Apple from Ms when it comes to UI and UX. The president is just like Bill in this situation, essentially considered the leader but without any power to changed flawed ideology.

Re: Flame from Bill Gates Re: Windows Usability

#73

Post by podperson » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 3:41 PM UTC

Maro wrote: post #33

lurker14 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People think the email is weird or unique because they are surprised that Bill Gates made 40 Billion dollars by running a company that builds products that bring intense pain to it users, and he appears to as frustrated as anyone else about the problem, and yet is completely powerless to stop it, even though he is in charge of everyone involved. It's bizarre to see someone who knows he is doing everything wrong and i…

Come on now. > products that bring intense pain to it users I'm a Mac user and I love Office (over OO and iWork). > as frustrated as anyone else about the problem It's not "a" problem. It's a large organization with tons of products, and some are more sucky then the rest. > is completely powerless to stop it He wasn't the CEO anymore when he wrote this. Also, even if he were the CEO, he can't go in and fix every anno…

Clicked you up but:

1. Seriously, try iWork ;-). Not only does Pages kick Word's butt, it can sit in the middle of a Word-based workflow (e.g. preserving change tracking).

2. Visual Studio doesn't kill Realbasic (from a tiny developer) or Xcode. Xcode has a different level of abstraction, but the result is that Xcode devs consistently produce far more polished apps than Visual Studio devs. But yes, it's pretty darn good.

3. Win7 is a tactical success but a strategic failure.

If you want an end-to-end picture of just how big a hole Microsoft finds itself in, go to http://microsoftstore.com

1. Their back-to-school incentive is a free XBox with each PC sold. Aside from just how big a loss this must represent (given the XBox 360 is, itself, a loss-leader) parents are going to LOVE this. Here's $25k college tuition and you want a computer with a free game console?

2. Because they're selling a weird hodgepodge of third-party products they need to provide things like a "recommend a PC for me given I am this kind of person" tool, and it makes no sense (e.g. I picked "develop with power" and got no results).

3. The chief selling point of the PCs they're selling is "no crapware".

4. Try to figure out their Win7 phone comparison tool.

And this is what happens when Microsoft goes out and deliberately tries to build an imitation Apple Store.

Re: Flame from Bill Gates Re: Windows Usability

#74

Post by MikeCapone » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 3:55 PM UTC

DaveMebs wrote: post #27

lurker14 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People think the email is weird or unique because they are surprised that Bill Gates made 40 Billion dollars by running a company that builds products that bring intense pain to it users, and he appears to as frustrated as anyone else about the problem, and yet is completely powerless to stop it, even though he is in charge of everyone involved. It's bizarre to see someone who knows he is doing everything wrong and i…

This mail is from 3 years after Gates stepped down as CEO. I think you are trying to use this to reaffirm your personal beliefs about MSFT, rather than use this form your beliefs about the company. You seem to think that because MSFT made Gates a ton of money, the company should be perfect. The fact that you find it bizarre for a founder to be actively involved in his company's products and working to highlight areas…

"This mail is from 3 years after Gates stepped down as CEO."

Questions: Was microsoft very different 3 years earlier?

Wasn't Gates still very involved with MSFT at that time?

Re: Flame from Bill Gates Re: Windows Usability

#75

Post by tjogin » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 3:59 PM UTC

Maro wrote: post #33

lurker14 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People think the email is weird or unique because they are surprised that Bill Gates made 40 Billion dollars by running a company that builds products that bring intense pain to it users, and he appears to as frustrated as anyone else about the problem, and yet is completely powerless to stop it, even though he is in charge of everyone involved. It's bizarre to see someone who knows he is doing everything wrong and i…

Come on now. > products that bring intense pain to it users I'm a Mac user and I love Office (over OO and iWork). > as frustrated as anyone else about the problem It's not "a" problem. It's a large organization with tons of products, and some are more sucky then the rest. > is completely powerless to stop it He wasn't the CEO anymore when he wrote this. Also, even if he were the CEO, he can't go in and fix every anno…

Bill Gates very much was CEO when the registry and the filesystem were "crapped up" and made "unusable".

Re: Flame from Bill Gates Re: Windows Usability

#76

Post by rbanffy » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 4:28 PM UTC

podperson wrote: post #73

Maro wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on now. > products that bring intense pain to it users I'm a Mac user and I love Office (over OO and iWork). > as frustrated as anyone else about the problem It's not "a" problem. It's a large organization with tons of products, and some are more sucky then the rest. > is completely powerless to stop it He wasn't the CEO anymore when he wrote this. Also, even if he were the CEO, he can't go in and fix every anno…

Clicked you up but: 1. Seriously, try iWork ;-). Not only does Pages kick Word's butt, it can sit in the middle of a Word-based workflow (e.g. preserving change tracking). 2. Visual Studio doesn't kill Realbasic (from a tiny developer) or Xcode. Xcode has a different level of abstraction, but the result is that Xcode devs consistently produce far more polished apps than Visual Studio devs. But yes, it's pretty darn g…

> the result is that Xcode devs consistently produce far more polished apps than Visual Studio devs.

There may be some sort of selection bias here: Mac users are much more sensitive to polish than Windows (or Linux) devs - they have chosen a Mac over a Dell and paid more for it. I am happy with console apps, as long as they do what I need them to, and my Atom-based Acer netbook supplies about 99% of my computing needs.

Re: Flame from Bill Gates Re: Windows Usability

#77

Post by sorbus » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 4:59 PM UTC

JamesBlair wrote: post #53

sorbus wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the link to scribd not work (such links are inserted in brackets whenever HN detects a story going to a pdf)? It doesn't give you the pdf, so you have to read it in the browser, but it seems perfectly functional otherwise.

Not for me: http://i.imgur.com/Cw8Rx.jpg

That's odd. It's not as readable as the PDF for me (under Chrome 12 and Windows 7), but it's still legible. Maybe you should send a bug report to the people at scribd? Or at least tell them that some files are unreadable in your browser/os combination.

Re: Flame from Bill Gates Re: Windows Usability

#78

Post by xilun0 » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 5:02 PM UTC

temphn wrote: post #48

JeffffreyF wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not at all hard, it's a philosophical problem. They simply believe their concerns are more important than the users. It's not hard or complicated, they're just philosophicaly fools because they believe what they want matters. It doesn't, and they can't wrap their heads around that. It doesn't at all when customers suffer because all they get depends on customers getting what they need. It's a simple concept that…

When Windows was better than the competition, it was winning in the marketplace. Now Google and Apple are better than the competition, so they are winning in the marketplace. Capitalism is working just fine. Unlike Microsoft, by contrast, the DMV has no competition and cannot go bankrupt. That's where things start to get very bad.

> When Windows was better than the competition, it was winning in the marketplace. Now Google and Apple are better than the competition, so they are winning in the marketplace.

hm??? this contains at least as much factual errors or imprecisions so gross it could mean anything that there are sentences. That plus the whole MS Windows vs Google comparison makes no sense at all.

Re: Flame from Bill Gates Re: Windows Usability

#79

Post by temphn » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 5:22 PM UTC

xilun0 wrote: post #78

temphn wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Windows was better than the competition, it was winning in the marketplace. Now Google and Apple are better than the competition, so they are winning in the marketplace. Capitalism is working just fine. Unlike Microsoft, by contrast, the DMV has no competition and cannot go bankrupt. That's where things start to get very bad.

> When Windows was better than the competition, it was winning in the marketplace. Now Google and Apple are better than the competition, so they are winning in the marketplace. hm??? this contains at least as much factual errors or imprecisions so gross it could mean anything that there are sentences. That plus the whole MS Windows vs Google comparison makes no sense at all.

Chrome is growing at the expense of IE, Android is crushing Windows Phone, Google Docs forced Windows Office to go online, Google Desktop search is better than Windows Desktop search, and Gmail has taken share from Hotmail and Outlook.

And now Chromebooks at $28/user/month are poised to take a ton of Redmond's other revenue:

http://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/article/Microsoft-could-lo...

So tell me again that the comparison makes "no sense at all"?

Re: Flame from Bill Gates Re: Windows Usability

#80

Post by brudgers » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 5:35 PM UTC

Microsoft's website is still a mess - or rather their 100's of websites are. Typing a term into the search box from an Microsoft blog might give you top results from a social forum, typing it from the main page at Microsoft.com will take you someplace else, from MSDN documentation another place still. It's a constant case of, I know I saw it somewhere, but I can't find it again right now.

On the other hand, they encourage everyone to put their work up on the web. And there is an insane amount of helpful information from really smart people who know what they are talking about - even if it isn't well indexed and cross referenced at least it is there.