Amazon Staffer Says She Was Fired over Bathroom Breaks for Bowel Issue • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Staffer Says She Was Fired over Bathroom Breaks for Bowel Issue

#71

Post by antisthenes » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 2:23 AM UTC

zuminator wrote: post #33

If the issue led to termination it's at least conceivable that it's a little more complicated than the staffer is letting on. If the person took six 5-minute breaks and got their tasks accomplished, no problem. But if they took 6 20-minute bathroom breaks, that's 2 hours out of a day in the bathroom, on a daily basis. That's an employee who's away from their workstation fully 1/4 of their day. Are they really able to…

> While most people who have chronic conditions are absolutely willing and able to perform up to task if given a reasonable accommodation, in some cases it's staggeringly apparent that the employee has no intention of ever putting in a full day's work, and is using the claim of an illness as a shield while they coast through the day.

So what? Reasonable accommodation has to include things like this, or the flexibility for the employee to work an extra hour and finish up their duties for the time they missed.

Otherwise, it's not accommodation at all.

And the idea that they're "coasting" when they're working 75% of the time is absolutely ludicrous. Does that mean French workers are all coasting, because they have a 7-hour work day?

Re: Amazon Staffer Says She Was Fired over Bathroom Breaks for Bowel Issue

#72

Post by ctvo » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 2:26 AM UTC

mrmuagi wrote: post #67

b9a2cab5 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you've never worked with people who intentionally "use the bathroom" to not work. If you step out of your white collar tech bubble for a moment you'd realize giving _two months_ to give a doctor's note before reprimanding this woman is perfectly reasonable. Blue collar work / retail is not like tech where your output is not necessarily a function of hours worked. In tech you can go to the bathroom 8 ho…

> It sounds like you've never worked with people who intentionally "use the bathroom" to not work. If you step out of your white collar tech bubble for a moment you'd realize giving _two months_ to give a doctor's note before reprimanding this woman is perfectly reasonable. If it's perfectly reasonable, perhaps there's no need for a court case? Or maybe you could concede that there's more details to the story and it…

> If it's perfectly reasonable, perhaps there's no need for a court case? Or maybe you could concede that there's more details to the story and it remains to be seen if Amazon was being perfectly reasonable

Anyone can bring a civil claim against anyone in America. If lawyers think the reputation damage will get Amazon to settle they'll front all bills for a percentage. Your position is exactly what the lawyers hope for at this stage.

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> But Amazon said she was expected to be seeking more than $75,000, one of the reasons it sought to move the case to federal court.

This is pennies for Amazon to settle. They won't since it'll open them up to more of these, and they'll spend as much time here as possible to send a message on the costs of litigating against them to others in the future.

Re: Amazon Staffer Says She Was Fired over Bathroom Breaks for Bowel Issue

#73

Post by 1123581321 » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 2:27 AM UTC

mrmuagi wrote: post #51

1123581321 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with you. These kinds of open-and-shut defiances of the law are easy for an average employment attorney to negotiate reasonable compensation (I.e. an elite lawyer doesn’t need to be found) and the circumstances are obviously bad enough that they don’t mark the employee as a troublemaker, and that’s assuming the case even makes the news.

Look, I agree you disagree with me too... (sorry I am Canadian). That doesn't change the fact that there are hurdles that atleast factor in to how the human who was fired in that scenario may feel? And isn't that a major component to the human experience, how we feel, especially in the situation where your employeer fired you for a reason you learned was their mistake? That's full on feel mode for me, I don't know if…

This time I agree with you (except for me having an iron will.) :) I think it’s important for those of us who understand when legal is the correct route to take to mention it as if it’s a normal course of action. Convincing people to even do a free consultation with an employment lawyer can be challenging, especially for lower earners who could benefit more from the restoration of their lost income.

Re: Amazon Staffer Says She Was Fired over Bathroom Breaks for Bowel Issue

#74

Post by dboreham » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 2:28 AM UTC

mrmuagi wrote: post #34

Permit wrote: post #5

> According to the filing, when she told a manager in November about her IBS and that she needed to use the bathroom up to six times a day, the manager told her to get a doctor's note. It appeared from the filing that Olivero didn't get the note. > Olivero then said in the filing that in January her manager said she was going to be written up, and that she'd need to get a doctor's note within five days. That seems...…

The scenario becomes weird when you take a step back and realize that she is a human being and bodily functions are even being monitored in such a way. I go to the bathroom sometimes more than her and the reasons are extremely defensible even outside medical reasons. Drink water often and see (although I would say perhaps with electrolytes mixed in as not to flush them out). I would not even doubt this was an excuse…

I will say this is all true but when you end up managing someone who just doesn't want to work, you may change your opinion. It's been many decades since I was in that position and it has occurred only once in my career, but it happens. Very disturbing experience tbh.

Re: Amazon Staffer Says She Was Fired over Bathroom Breaks for Bowel Issue

#75

Post by inter_netuser » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 2:33 AM UTC

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #47

mrmuagi wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scenario becomes weird when you take a step back and realize that she is a human being and bodily functions are even being monitored in such a way. I go to the bathroom sometimes more than her and the reasons are extremely defensible even outside medical reasons. Drink water often and see (although I would say perhaps with electrolytes mixed in as not to flush them out). I would not even doubt this was an excuse…

60%+ of Americans work in retail once in their lives, where bathroom breaks are almost always monitored. The people working at Walmart, grocery stores, department stores, etc. are absolutely expected to man their shift until their scheduled break, as are many people that work in restaurants, on manufacturing floors, etc. It's inhumane, yes, but it's not Amazon-specific.

Not even just retail.

Call centers are like that too.

Re: Amazon Staffer Says She Was Fired over Bathroom Breaks for Bowel Issue

#76

Post by inter_netuser » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 2:38 AM UTC

ctvo wrote: post #72

mrmuagi wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like you've never worked with people who intentionally "use the bathroom" to not work. If you step out of your white collar tech bubble for a moment you'd realize giving _two months_ to give a doctor's note before reprimanding this woman is perfectly reasonable. If it's perfectly reasonable, perhaps there's no need for a court case? Or maybe you could concede that there's more details to the story and it…

> If it's perfectly reasonable, perhaps there's no need for a court case? Or maybe you could concede that there's more details to the story and it remains to be seen if Amazon was being perfectly reasonable Anyone can bring a civil claim against anyone in America. If lawyers think the reputation damage will get Amazon to settle they'll front all bills for a percentage. Your position is exactly what the lawyers hope f…

what costs?

some lawyer is picking this up on contingency. They'll have a confidential settlement at some point that will not be binding nor set precedent.

It'll be cheaper for Amazon to do that, than keep sending lawyers to court.

Re: Amazon Staffer Says She Was Fired over Bathroom Breaks for Bowel Issue

#77

Post by inter_netuser » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 2:39 AM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #65

mrmuagi wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scenario becomes weird when you take a step back and realize that she is a human being and bodily functions are even being monitored in such a way. I go to the bathroom sometimes more than her and the reasons are extremely defensible even outside medical reasons. Drink water often and see (although I would say perhaps with electrolytes mixed in as not to flush them out). I would not even doubt this was an excuse…

You can ask your doctor to simply be vague and affirm that you have a clinically significant problem which requires accommodation. There is no reason to get into the details, except with respect to the ways you're asking to be accommodated. Similarly, if you were attending a public institution, it makes sense that if you're seeking special accommodation then you'd at least have to disclose how you want to be accommod…

Diagnoses are almost never revealed on accomodation requests, only what aspects need to be accomodated.

Re: Amazon Staffer Says She Was Fired over Bathroom Breaks for Bowel Issue

#78

Post by mrmuagi » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 2:40 AM UTC

ctvo wrote: post #72

mrmuagi wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like you've never worked with people who intentionally "use the bathroom" to not work. If you step out of your white collar tech bubble for a moment you'd realize giving _two months_ to give a doctor's note before reprimanding this woman is perfectly reasonable. If it's perfectly reasonable, perhaps there's no need for a court case? Or maybe you could concede that there's more details to the story and it…

> If it's perfectly reasonable, perhaps there's no need for a court case? Or maybe you could concede that there's more details to the story and it remains to be seen if Amazon was being perfectly reasonable Anyone can bring a civil claim against anyone in America. If lawyers think the reputation damage will get Amazon to settle they'll front all bills for a percentage. Your position is exactly what the lawyers hope f…

> Your position is exactly what the lawyers hope for at this stage.

My dread is complete. The avenue disgruntled employees have to air out injustices also lines the pocket of lawyers.

Jokes aside, I appreciate your analysis. There's always another layer to the onion. There's definitely someone at Amazon corporate weighing the scales as you so astutely elaborated. In the end though I am interested to hear about the disability protections afforded by NJ legislature and if they apply here.

Re: Amazon Staffer Says She Was Fired over Bathroom Breaks for Bowel Issue

#79

Post by inter_netuser » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 2:41 AM UTC

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #40

Permit wrote: post #5

> According to the filing, when she told a manager in November about her IBS and that she needed to use the bathroom up to six times a day, the manager told her to get a doctor's note. It appeared from the filing that Olivero didn't get the note. > Olivero then said in the filing that in January her manager said she was going to be written up, and that she'd need to get a doctor's note within five days. That seems...…

Speaking as someone with IBS, it took a long time to get a definitive "IBS" diagnosis from my doctor. IBS is a process of elimination diagnosis. They'll confirm it's not any number of other things, and only after definitively ruling out Crohn's disease and other more serious conditions will they settle on IBS (which I took from my doctor to mean "We don't know.") Now for treatment purposes, they were giving me medica…

You can be accommodated for a suspected condition, or without a definitive diagnosis.

Re: Amazon Staffer Says She Was Fired over Bathroom Breaks for Bowel Issue

#80

Post by bllguo » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 2:58 AM UTC

LAC-Tech wrote: post #35

bllguo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

to me 6 times during working hours is frequent by any measure, but that's hardly the important thing here. there has to be a line somewhere. is 8 frequent? 10? there is some threshold X, what we care about most is the response to crossing it and the response seems eminently reasonable. getting a note in 2 months is just not a draconian requirement no matter how it is spun. i have to give benefit of the doubt and assu…

> to me 6 times during working hours is frequent by any measure, but that's hardly the important thing here. I'm so glad I'm work from home so I don't have to debate with people if I go to the bathroom too often are not.

to be clear it said "bowel issues" in the headline. having to urinate 6 times is not something i imagine anyone would care about. it's certainly not what i had in mind..

the other thing is that again, this has to do with the nature of the job. productivity in a warehouse is much more linearly related to time spent in the warehouse than productivity of knowledge workers is to time at the desk