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ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

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Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#71

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

dataflow wrote: post #52
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fabs are just a wee bit more complicated than buy the machine and plug it in. Everything is very tightly integrated under insanely precise requirements. Changing equipment is akin to redesigning and reconstructing a non trivial portion of the fab. And that's just integrating these lithography machines, which are but one piece of a huge puzzle.

I don't think I suggested otherwise. But it's not like Intel wouldn't have the capability of running ASML machines if it wanted to, is it?

Yes. But it will take a non trivial amount of time for them to change course, and they could still stumble on any number of other issues on the integration.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#72

Post by br4m »

as1mov wrote: post #56
royjacobs wrote: post #23

Ah yes, ASML. I have a number of friends and ex-colleagues who work there. Unsurprisingly, due to their importance, ASML are extremely well-known inside of the Netherlands. It's one of those companies that spun out of Philips Electronics and became very successful (NXP is another good example). A lot of research and development is still going on in the area where Philips had their research labs. If you're curious to…

Kinda off-topic but what's it like working at ASML? They are hiring for a lot of software roles at the moment. I've been mulling about applying there but from the outside it looks very bureaucratic (at least that's what the Glassdoor reviews seem to indicate).

As someone who currently works there it is indeed bureaucratic. But I also feel like it is an environment that focuses less on cost/money and optimizes for the highest quality. I.e., there is room to explore the best way of doing something and there is less pressure to do it ASAP or for the lowest price.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#73

Post by lumost »

Kye wrote: post #65
ren_engineer wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASML will matter for decades unless a competitor surpasses them. US is already blocking them from exporting to China https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-wants-a-chip-machine-from... the company is probably as important as TSMC in terms of geopolitics now

All it takes is someone figuring out how to do the same thing without all the specialized parts or bulk. That's the main cost. This is the way of tech: it starts expensive, full of specialized parts that only a few suppliers produce, then someone figures out how to do it cheaper. At $1B a pop + 50% for lifetime maintenance, the incentive is there.

The problem with semi is that they will move to a machine that costs 2 billion a pop within 2 years. The output of this 2 billion dollar machine will be greater than the cost increase.

Semi is heading to a winner take all market based on capital expenditure. Even TSMC can’t afford to in house the work ASML does and keep pace with new developments.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#74

Post by whazor »

as1mov wrote: post #56
royjacobs wrote: post #23

Ah yes, ASML. I have a number of friends and ex-colleagues who work there. Unsurprisingly, due to their importance, ASML are extremely well-known inside of the Netherlands. It's one of those companies that spun out of Philips Electronics and became very successful (NXP is another good example). A lot of research and development is still going on in the area where Philips had their research labs. If you're curious to…

Kinda off-topic but what's it like working at ASML? They are hiring for a lot of software roles at the moment. I've been mulling about applying there but from the outside it looks very bureaucratic (at least that's what the Glassdoor reviews seem to indicate).

It really is. The machines are highly sophisticated and downtime is very costly. Code bases are heavily documented and have a bureaucratic process to protect them. ASML does have less crucial software projects that have a more normal process.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#75

Post by nabla9 »

rapsey wrote: post #26

So what does TSMC then do that no one else can replicate if they use these machines?

TSMC and Samsung are two companies that have competitive technology node in EUV (Intel struggling).

It means they have invented ways to use these machines to print extremely small transistors and that are fast, energy efficient and have good yield (less failures in the process).

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#76

Post by Keyframe »

FlorianRappl wrote: post #22

ASML is a great company. What should be stressed is that the lenses are coming from Zeiss SMT, which is a strategic partner of ASML since 1997. In fact, they are so important that ASML bought a significant part of the Carl Zeiss subsidiary some years ago. You can't get a pretty good video about the relationship and EUV at: https://www.zeiss.com/semiconductor-manufacturing-technology...

Schott (glass) / Zeiss (lens) combo is extremely important in a lot of industries. Most people probably heard about them through photography or spectacles.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#77

Post by Keyframe »

rapsey wrote: post #37
woudsma wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently the machines are pretty hard to replicate, the company (ASML) has had to deal with a couple of corporate espionage cases in the past[0]. [0]: https://nos.nl/artikel/2280228-wat-heeft-de-chinese-overheid... (in Dutch)

What I meant was TSMC uses these machines. Anyone else (except the Chinese I guess?) can also use these machines. What is the TSMC secret sauce that no one else can match?

It's one (well, few) step of the process, albeit probably the most important.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#78

Post by Gys »

erichocean wrote: post #59
ren_engineer wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASML will matter for decades unless a competitor surpasses them. US is already blocking them from exporting to China https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-wants-a-chip-machine-from... the company is probably as important as TSMC in terms of geopolitics now

> US is already blocking them from exporting to China Which works until China invades Taiwan. Then what?

The US (supposedly?) blocked ASML from exporting its machines to China. ASML is a Dutch company.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#80

Post by doikor »

pas wrote: post #49
cushychicken wrote: post #28

ASML's first EUV machine contract closure was for $15 bil, and the contract explicitly stipulated that $3bil was just for the purpose of acquiring three specialty Boeing 747s for shipping the machines to the clients. Each chunk of the machine must be shipped in vacuum. It takes about 40 chunks to make a complete EUV lithography machine. Each is about the equivalent mass of a school bus.

Why the need for special 747s? Can't they put each chunk into a shipping container sized steel box and seal it vacuum tight, then ship that with regular 747s?

Splitting some of the parts into smaller parts will expose the insides to outside air which brings some serious cleanliness issues. The mirrors especially will get destroyed instantly by heat if there is any dirt on them when they are flashed by EUV.
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