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How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

productivityhub.org

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Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#71

Post by kqr »

epicureanideal wrote: post #9

(By the way, I’m writing this from a place of exhaustion and disappointment with the industry, rather than just knee jerk negativity.) Although I do think it’s worthwhile to try to think and communicate as clearly as possible, over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it. You can do everything right and the majority of the time it…

> If anyone is aware of an environment where meritocracy exists in this industry I’d love to know about it.

I work in one, but it's the only one I've found so far.

I don't know how it happens. I asked my manager (also one of the founders) about it once, he shrugged, and said "I could make something up that sounds convincing, but to a large extent I think it's about being lucky."

Maybe that humility is part of what it takes.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#72

Post by Gravityloss »

kqr wrote: post #71
epicureanideal wrote: post #9

(By the way, I’m writing this from a place of exhaustion and disappointment with the industry, rather than just knee jerk negativity.) Although I do think it’s worthwhile to try to think and communicate as clearly as possible, over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it. You can do everything right and the majority of the time it…

> If anyone is aware of an environment where meritocracy exists in this industry I’d love to know about it. I work in one, but it's the only one I've found so far. I don't know how it happens. I asked my manager (also one of the founders) about it once, he shrugged, and said "I could make something up that sounds convincing, but to a large extent I think it's about being lucky." Maybe that humility is part of what it…

What a humble person, that is very rare.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#73

Post by Gravityloss »

axiolite wrote: post #59
afarrell wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> never received the information that Mr X promised If you re-read the above, you’ll notice that Mr X never promised to have the data. He instead said he lacked the data. One reason a person can end up losing credibility and making lots of excuses is that they are overcommitted. “I do not have time” might sound like an excuse, but it is genuinely possible to work 80-hour weeks on 5 hours of sleep and still be unable…

> you’ll notice that Mr X never promised to have the data. He instead said he lacked the data. I don't know what the actual situation was, but what the parent typed seemed to indicate Mr X was implying he could provide his data later (but based on past experience, never will): > "I don't have the data right now" — and it will never be provided I'm all for people working a reasonable number of hours and getting plenty…

If somebody's overworked, then their boss is not doing their job well and should be complained to.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#74

Post by Demonsult »

xyzzy21 wrote: post #10

"Sandwich Technique" All you ever need to know.

I've gotten to the point where I wince at compliments because of the shit sandwich technique. When I get one, I know I'm dealing with a passive-aggressive person and limit my interactions from then on.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#75

Post by questionQuest »

jdsampayo wrote: post #11

Maybe add a 2019 on the title? Feels strange to read on the title header: PRODUCTIVITY TIPS AND APPS by PRODUCTIVITY HUB like if it was an original article from the website but at the very end there is the note 'All Rights Reserved for Dave Bailey' without any link to the original source: https://medium.dave-bailey.com/the-essential-guide-to-diffic... which is taken from Dave Bailey website ( https://www.dave-bailey.…

Also found on this website... https://productivityhub.org/2021/07/28/do-not-date-marry-or-...

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#76

Post by pc86 »

deathanatos wrote: post #45
epicureanideal wrote: post #9

(By the way, I’m writing this from a place of exhaustion and disappointment with the industry, rather than just knee jerk negativity.) Although I do think it’s worthwhile to try to think and communicate as clearly as possible, over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it. You can do everything right and the majority of the time it…

> over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it. What's worse to me, is the never be provided, even at a later date. The request is ignored or forgotten about. But inevitably, we should press on making a decision on the unsubstantiated claim!) And half the time, it feels like the unsubstantiated claim, even if true … literally woul…

It's 100% possible that we work for the same company, on the same team, and have complained about the same individual on HN before.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#77

Post by alsetmusic »

afarrell wrote: post #50
deathanatos wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it. What's worse to me, is the never be provided, even at a later date. The request is ignored or forgotten about. But inevitably, we should press on making a decision on the unsubstantiated claim!) And half the time, it feels like the unsubstantiated claim, even if true … literally woul…

This is similar to a frustrating pattern of my own behavior over last year. Would you like to know what is behind it?

> This is similar to a frustrating pattern of my own behavior over last year. Would you like to know what is behind it?

I don’t understand why someone would take this approach. Why not just explain the thing?

Then again, this seems like more of what was described, so perhaps this is in character. And this makes me wonder if this comment is actually trolling. Please understand that I’m not accusing you of trolling so much as I’m observing that this would be a really well-executed troll if such was the intent.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#78

Post by handoflixue »

wintermutestwin wrote: post #44
camillomiller wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This in turn feels quite manipulative, though.

This is a very common dismissal in these circles (as referenced by many previous NVC and related HN discussions). I am saying the following to ask you to think a little more about this: First off, "manipulative" is not an emotion. You could exchange "feels" with "seems" because language is important. It is not slightly ironic that programmer types can tend towards imprecise language when discussing EQ skills :-) And…

You just spent an entire post dismissing someone as incorrect, but you did it in a very ambiguous way that makes it impossible to directly attack - you've created a motte and bailey where you can say "Well, I'm just suggesting that the assumption MIGHT be wrong" but you never actually entertain the possibility that it might be correct.

Why are you dismissing the possibility that you're doing violence? Why have you jumped on the first story that came to mind, instead of giving u a post that lists 5 other assumptions?

And why should I assume that someone creating a fuzzy, unaccountable attack against me is making any sort of effort to take my perspective in to account? If you were trying to take a perspective in to account, you'd actually address "this feels manipulative" instead of just dancing around and insisting that there are alternative perspectives.

You can't completely ignore someone's perspective and then claim you're a good, empathetic listener! And if you can't see how that's manipulative, I'm not honestly sure I can help you.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#79

Post by handoflixue »

kubanczyk wrote: post #37
camillomiller wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This in turn feels quite manipulative, though.

As much as it is manipulative per se , and might likely seem unnatural ("false"/"calculated"), it's at the same time quite effective. This form of communication accomplishes its stated goals, and being a natural, ummm, bloke is not it.

I've met quite a few other people who don't react well to NVC, so it seems at least worth giving NVC the caveat that it doesn't work universally.

I'm not really sure what the difference is, but I expect tact filters (https://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html) probably play a big role. In particular, NVC seems fanatically about "speaker needs to apply tact", and geek culture is often deeply rooted in "listener needs to apply tact". That's just me guessing in the dark based on anecdotes, though.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#80

Post by spawarotti »

BeetleB wrote: post #42
spawarotti wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You were ten minutes late this morning. I was annoyed at having to wait for you and lose productivity. Could you explain why you were late? Honestly, this sounds even worse to me than just the observation. IMO a good test is "Would I say this to my boss? If not, then probably I shouldn't say it at all.". I would not say this to my boss. Not even close. How about instead: "Hey, I noticed you were a little bit late,…

> "Hey, I noticed you were a little bit late, which is unusual for you. Is everything OK?" "Yup." > "Hey, I noticed you were a bit late in the last couple of meetings. I think it is somewhat important to be on time. Is there anything I can do to help you avoid being late next time?" Below are very real (and somewhat common) responses I've seen to this type of question. "Nope." (single word answer) Also: "I wasn't lat…

I think you touch on an important point: you have some expectation and the person doesn't share it. But here is the rub - maybe they are right, not you? Why do you assume you are right? Maybe that person indeed is not needed on that meeting. Maybe by being late they are trying to communicate to you this meeting is in fact a waste of everyone's time. Did you consider this?

For me that's one of the main failing points of NVC as I see it represented here - it starts with "I am right, and you need to adjust" instead of "let's find the underlying root cause of the problem together".

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