How The Hell Is This My Fault? • Hacker News Board

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#71

Post by kristiandupont » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 10:20 AM UTC

It's amazing to me how polarized the comments are even here on HN where the debate is usually very balanced.

Obviously we know very little about what's going on behind the scenes right now. There are conflicting messages coming from all sides.

I am not saying that EJ is lying. But calling AirBnB are completely cynical and lacking any sense of PR seems incongruent with the skills they have otherwise shown and also with the empathy that they at least managed to convey in interviews etc.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#72

Post by wisty » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 10:24 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #52

suprgeek wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. It is hard to write a defense of TC given past events. However in this case they are SPOT ON. None of the stories are overtly "drama" or "editorializing" on TC's part. EJs posts are dramatic enough. PG has come out in explicit defense on AirBnB's behalf when they are very clearly falling short in the ethical and "right thing to do" department, not to mention trying to censor somebody by pressuring them. Tak…

PG has come out in explicit defense on AirBnB's behalf when they are very clearly falling short in the ethical and "right thing to do" department Well, he is invested in them, and he is only human. While I am not saying that is why he is backing AirBnB, it's good not to forget where people are coming from and where their interests lie.

It's also possible he thinks he is acting in good faith. It's possible that AirBnB gave a different story to PG, when he asked what was going on, and they complained about how the press was misrepresenting them. PG then blogs their excuses, having taken them as gospel.

I'm really surprised how definitive PG sounds. He's not saying "The CEO reassured me in a private chat ...", he's acting like he was a fly on the wall, and saw it all take place.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#73

Post by gobongo » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 10:25 AM UTC

hluska wrote: post #35

Let's engage in a little thought exercise. Pretend that you are the Airbnb victim. You live in incredible fear of psychotic criminals and identity thieves. The fear is so uncontrollable that you "spend [your] mornings recalling nightmares and breathing through panic attacks." Would you: a) go into hiding at a friend's place and lay low? b) go extremely public and take on a startup?

The criminals already know everything about her (real name, likely her social security number, etc), what on earth does she have to lose by "extremely public" blogging?

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#74

Post by wisty » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 10:31 AM UTC

adnam wrote: post #67

redthrowaway wrote: post #31

Sorry PG, but you have a steep hill to climb if you want to defend aribnb. The crux of your (and their) problem is this: Why, if, as you say, airbnb was being as helpful as possible from the get-go, did the victim write that second post? That's it. You cannot have a claim to credibility until you answer that question. Even if that answer is, "she was paid off", the existence of her second blog post puts the lie to ai…

This is someone who thought it was a good idea to rent out their home (not just their property, their home ) for a whole week, unattended, to a total stranger. The biggest mistake Airbnb have made is not overly trusting their travellers, but also their hosts.

No, the biggest mistake AirBnB has is not following PR 101 - get all the bad facts out at once, then start spinning up some positive stories. Feed reporters a narrative, and give them lots of headlines to use, or they will start thinking of ones themselves.

Day 1: A woman had her house trashed by a rogue guest. We do not believe we are legally responsible for this. All AirBnB users, while this is an isolated incident, please take care when taking in guests, especially if they are new users. See our guide to safer AirBnB here...

Day 2: We are working with the police, and have turned over all details relevant to the case. We are also in talks with the unfortunate host, seeing what we can do to help her with through this difficult time. If you wish to leave a supportive note to here, please leave it here:

Day 3. As we have stated, we do not believe we are liable for these actions. However, we overhauling our safety information, and offering support to the victim.

...

Really, it's not hard. OK, it is hard if you think you did no wrong, and everyone should see it from your point of view.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#75

Post by blub » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 10:31 AM UTC

dollarsigns wrote: post #70

adnam wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is someone who thought it was a good idea to rent out their home (not just their property, their home ) for a whole week, unattended, to a total stranger. The biggest mistake Airbnb have made is not overly trusting their travellers, but also their hosts.

You would have a factual point if AirBnB prominently displays on relevant pages "We assume you are not stupid enough to rent out your primary residence. Make sure you don't since we are NOT in the insurance business and take NO responsibility for any damages".

This is the kind of situation that leads to 'Keep away from fire' labels being added to t-shirts.

To me renting your home to a stranger and then failing to check up on them for an entire week is incredibly naive. 10 year old naive. I don't care if airbnb said that they would provide 100% insurance, I would still not do this, it is simply against how I know the world works. And don't tell me about the 'good human being assumption', this is a fairytale, anyone making that assuption will get burned sooner or later.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#76

Post by babebridou » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 10:38 AM UTC

lancewiggs wrote: post #65

Hundreds of comments and votes. But I have not seen an apology from AirBnB on HN. Perhaps I missed it, but they should be everywhere. Why don't they understand this? Why are they not incredibly active on this and other forums? Have they no conscience? Do they really not care? Is this really still seen by them as a PR problem rather than a a horrible event that they at least partially enabled and thus should feel terr…

Let's be blunt: when there's a fire, the first thing that's required is to contain it. They failed at containing their public presence to a specific website/social network and now there are little flame wars sprouting everywhere and no way to adress every opinion.

Unfortunately, I believe the best option at this point for AirBnB is to do nothing about it for this specific case, and brace for the next impact by preparing the field in advance (centralize comments in order to assimilate and answer public questions).

This story should not be bigger than what's happened/happening to the victim - and that's huge enough already. Make her feel better first, then see what you can do about your "image". Tell your side of the story in one place and be receptive for critics. Something good can come out of this mess, but they won't find it if they think hiring more people to monitor/participate in more forums on the internet is a solution.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#77

Post by rweba » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 10:40 AM UTC

This might now end up affecting not only Airbnb but also the image of Ycombinator and pg.

Also the important issue here is not just the (terrible) handling of this specific incident by Airbnb but the fact that it puts into question their entire business model: Is it really smart to rent out your personal residence to a complete stranger? Does the potential benefit($$$) outweigh the significant risks(being completely violated)? Yes, they could put in some more checks but will that be enough to make people feel SAFE?

Personally I think the risk is too high and the problem will only become worse as the service tries to expand to more customers and scammers become more aware of it. That nice "guest" may simply be casing the joint, copying your keys and snooping in your mail. Who needs that risk?

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#78

Post by jongos » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 10:49 AM UTC

rweba wrote: post #77

This might now end up affecting not only Airbnb but also the image of Ycombinator and pg. Also the important issue here is not just the (terrible) handling of this specific incident by Airbnb but the fact that it puts into question their entire business model: Is it really smart to rent out your personal residence to a complete stranger? Does the potential benefit($$$) outweigh the significant risks(being completely…

I dont't think this puts their business model into question at all. In fact you just described what they might do to improve, by making risk mitigation part of their model (offering to sell insurance of some kind, options for getting verified or pre-screened etc.)

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#79

Post by chipsy » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 10:51 AM UTC

WordSkill wrote: post #48

You know, I am no cheerleader for Michael Arrington, we've certainly banged heads a few times in comment threads (it's a fun way to spend an evening) but what Paul Graham is doing here is pretty cynical: Once it became clear yesterday that the empathically-challenged kids in charge at Airbnb had no clue of how to manage the problem, and that the company was hemorrhaging tens of millions in notional value every time B…

This is one of the most likely stories.

However, there is alternative that looks possible(not knowing enough about the story to feel sure about the truth) which is that our victim has lied through her teeth in pursuit of Payout From BigCo - entirely possible given Airbnb's current prominence, and given the wildly over-the-top nature of the story we've been told(worst guests ever, worst service ever, etc). The Airbnb team recognized it for what it is, and chose to fight it. So now they have to battle their way through the bad PR.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#80

Post by nkassis » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 10:53 AM UTC

gojomo wrote: post #60

bugsy wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I assumed that much of what she said was a misinterpretation of events based on emotional stress like you say since their public face was completely different from the aggressive stance they (at least one of them) were taking in private. However, that changed after reading the Arrington article because it is now corroborated that they do in fact have people there taking an aggressive stance, and who are lyi…

Compare Arrington's original writeup: I spoke to Airbnb about EJ’s situation. They won’t reimburse her for damages, they say, and they do not insure against losses. They are helping police track down the person who did this, but their help ends there. ...with how Arrington now casts the spokesman's statement... Airbnb’s Christopher Lukezic told me on Wednesday that the company was not responsible for EJ’s losses, tha…

Mmm, he's showing a bit of lack of journalistic integrity here. He should have quoted himself and maybe mention the possible mis understanding.

Right now it seems that the whole situation is full or misunderstanding due to massive lack of communication between the people who are actually involved. EJ, AirBnB and SFPD seem to not be exchanging what they know very well. That was echoed in EJ's 2nd post where she says that the police might be giving different info to AirBnB and what not.