Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010) • Hacker News Board

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#71

Post by Kliment » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

certeoun wrote: post #38

jimnotgym wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst the detractors of UBI like to paint it as automatically impossible, like breaking some fundamental law of nature, I bet the same people would have said the same things about the Covid benefit schemes. In my country people could be furloughed by their employer on 80% of their salary... and somehow we paid for it ok.

The government needs to pay for this. The taxes collected come from people. So a fraction of the people have to pay for UBI. If we assume full automation and no private property, then the machines work for us now. They don't complain like Ben Shapiro that paying for the poor with your wealth/income is "stealing". Communism is a good idea on paper, but humans in general are greedy and envious. If we had unlimited reso…

Ideally, the funds don't primarily come from other people's income, they come from corporate wealth and income (currently severely undertaxed), taxes on natural resource use (currently severely undertaxed), taxes on things we don't want like carbon emissions and other pollution (currently severely undertaxed) taxes on nonrenewable limited resources like radio spectrum usage or land usage (currently not taxed at all or nowhere near proportional to value most places), and direct wealth generation from nation-level investments (sovereign funds, resource funds). The "taxes come from people" is a common way to paint UBI as a self-defeating cycle of redistribution, but that's not how it is. Human income is a dropping fraction of total income, and human wealth is a dropping fraction of total wealth.

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#72

Post by certeoun » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

certeoun wrote: post #49

luckylion wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to put up with getting the same thing as everyone else. I don't think that's true for most people. Rather, people don't want to expend energy when they can get away with not doing it. Working is hard, and if you're taken care off if you don't, then a sizable part of the population won't.

I hope so. Again, I wouldn't complain about it, but there are people like Ben Shapiro, you know. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ People like Ben then perhaps need to put up with it if the majority decides so. I just don't want to imagine his rage and anger...

Okay, the person who disliked my comment refused to answer why he did it. I can only guess why he did it. I suspect it is because of my silly remarks in general. Anyhow, it would be still better if you could provide me a reason, so I can get better next time. I cannot read minds you know, unknown downvoter whoever you are. Next time I will avoid being silly or making silly remarks. If this was even the offender? (However, my comment above was not entirely silly. A small part of it was.)

Edit:

Okay, I got an answer. Apparently it was because my argument was flawed. Thank you! :)

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#73

Post by certeoun » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

Kliment wrote: post #71

certeoun wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government needs to pay for this. The taxes collected come from people. So a fraction of the people have to pay for UBI. If we assume full automation and no private property, then the machines work for us now. They don't complain like Ben Shapiro that paying for the poor with your wealth/income is "stealing". Communism is a good idea on paper, but humans in general are greedy and envious. If we had unlimited reso…

Ideally, the funds don't primarily come from other people's income, they come from corporate wealth and income (currently severely undertaxed), taxes on natural resource use (currently severely undertaxed), taxes on things we don't want like carbon emissions and other pollution (currently severely undertaxed) taxes on nonrenewable limited resources like radio spectrum usage or land usage (currently not taxed at all o…

Thank you for your comment, Kliment. I am currently trying to see my error in thinking and fix it.

> currently severely undertaxed

Is it because companies such as Amazon are good at avoiding taxes?

> they come from corporate wealth and income

Hmm... I think this is what I don't really understand. Aren't corporations owned by a few people? So at the end the owners are paying the taxes? Can companies exist without owners (people)? (They change, I know, but can they exist without people?) I am probably to fixated on people, and perhaps I need to see companies as an own entity.

> taxes on things we don't want like carbon emissions and other pollution

Okay, so somebody and a "company" is also a somebody here, needs to pay for that? (So it is the owner at the end?)

> direct wealth generation from nation-level investments (sovereign funds, resource funds)

Okay, that makes sense. A stock is bought and sold by people, and its value increases and decreases depending on the decisions of people. However, you are right, the government owns that stock. So it belongs to all of us.

Okay, so my question essentially boils down to: Why is the owner of a company like Jeff Bezos irrelevant here? I can see this for the sovereign funds, resource funds part. However, I have trouble with the CEO part. What am I missing here? My understanding of government and taxes is wrong, perhaps. That's why I cannot see it, probably.

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#74

Post by tonyedgecombe » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #28

throwawaygimp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI no one knows. Being sold or otherwise doesn't matter. Small trials here and there aren't much use. We need a country with balls to try it like Portugal did with drug policy. So yea, I'm not sold either. No one really is until we get the hard truth. Nothing more complex (and chaotic) than society and it's economy. Good luck modelling and predicting that reliably ha!

Whilst the detractors of UBI like to paint it as automatically impossible, like breaking some fundamental law of nature, I bet the same people would have said the same things about the Covid benefit schemes. In my country people could be furloughed by their employer on 80% of their salary... and somehow we paid for it ok.

UBI would be easily affordable if it was low enough. I don't know about the US but in the UK the progressive tax system means you don't pay any tax on the first £12,500. Scrap that and give it back as UBI instead then it would add up. The trouble is I don't think this is what the proponents have in mind.

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#75

Post by ChrisLomont » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

Kliment wrote: post #71

certeoun wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government needs to pay for this. The taxes collected come from people. So a fraction of the people have to pay for UBI. If we assume full automation and no private property, then the machines work for us now. They don't complain like Ben Shapiro that paying for the poor with your wealth/income is "stealing". Communism is a good idea on paper, but humans in general are greedy and envious. If we had unlimited reso…

Ideally, the funds don't primarily come from other people's income, they come from corporate wealth and income (currently severely undertaxed), taxes on natural resource use (currently severely undertaxed), taxes on things we don't want like carbon emissions and other pollution (currently severely undertaxed) taxes on nonrenewable limited resources like radio spectrum usage or land usage (currently not taxed at all o…

Taxes on corporations are paid by people. Every dollar taxed from a company is a dollar less the company is worth. For mom and pop companies, it's directly less value they have. For larger private companies, it taxes owners. For large public companies, it taxes everyone with any investment exposure, which is the vast majority of people by retirement time.

It lowers returns on pensions, which is a hidden tax on nearly everyone.

Lower capital in companies causes them to raise prices sometimes, hire less sometimes, fire more quickly in bad times, etc.

Just because you don't see how it taxes you doesn't mean you're not paying.

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#76

Post by certeoun » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

ChrisLomont wrote: post #75

Kliment wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideally, the funds don't primarily come from other people's income, they come from corporate wealth and income (currently severely undertaxed), taxes on natural resource use (currently severely undertaxed), taxes on things we don't want like carbon emissions and other pollution (currently severely undertaxed) taxes on nonrenewable limited resources like radio spectrum usage or land usage (currently not taxed at all o…

Taxes on corporations are paid by people. Every dollar taxed from a company is a dollar less the company is worth. For mom and pop companies, it's directly less value they have. For larger private companies, it taxes owners. For large public companies, it taxes everyone with any investment exposure, which is the vast majority of people by retirement time. It lowers returns on pensions, which is a hidden tax on nearly…

You expressed it better than I did. At the end it is people, but apparently we two have fundamental disagreements with OP (Kliment).

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#77

Post by Gunax » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

throwawaygimp wrote: post #9

UBI + health (and other calamity) insurance for all. A strong public mental health system. Prescription drugs of every kind, heroin, meth, whatever. With the right counselling and support attached. I might be an idiot but pretty sure most crime will just go away, then we can spend proper resources to help and support (and punish when needed) the few offenders who really struggle to stay within the rules of society. T…

I don't think there's anything wrong with starting a debate.

Rehabilitation is one of those code words that polls well, but I am skeptical it exists. In reality it usually just means 'addiction treatment' (which seldom works) and there isnt really a good analogy for crimes that are not drug related. Just for my own clarity, what exactly constitues rehabilitation for eg. someone who embezzles?

The second issue is that it seems to focus on preventing additional crime, but punishment is about preventing crime before it happens. Just proving 'I would never do it again' isn't really the point, we want to prevent crimes from ever happening.

Your theory seems to be that most people are inherently good and wouldn't do crime just because if their nature. I think that is fundamentally wrong, and I can prove it.

All you need to do is examine situations in which people were suddenly put in situations where they knew they were unlikely to receive punishment: and crime explodes.

There were millions of rapes commited by soldiers against German women during the occupation following world war 2. My guess is most of the perpetrators never raped again--they went home and were otherwise normal citizens. Had they not been given the opportunity to get away with it, they would not have done it.

I sort if see this akin to the Milgram experiment. You probably think you wouldn't shock the man--and maybe you wouldn't--but our studies suggest most people would.

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#78

Post by jdjd6 » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

erdos4d wrote: post #68

kwhitefoot wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm beginning to really dislike the downvote button. This seems like a perfectly reasonable comment so what purpose is served by fading it out?

This happens so often on here, these extreme downvotings of otherwise normal comments, that I'm convinced this is the product of bots or some other manipulation. I don't think the karma means anything on this board.

Just another case of an online echo chamber.

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#79

Post by Gunax » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

If putting every rapist in solitary confinement prevented a single rape, it would be unethical to not do so.

These sorts of articles come out a lot. I think they gain traction because people conflate the wrong ng conviction with the harshness of the punishment. Note how almost always it's about innocent people suffering, but presented as a human rights abuse innehich case their guilt should be irrelevant.

The courts have a problem with arbitrariness and wrong convictions. I think that's the real issue, and people are conflating that with the human rights debate around punishment itself.

Re: Experience: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#80

Post by TomSwirly » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 2:38 PM UTC

throwawaygimp wrote: post #9

UBI + health (and other calamity) insurance for all. A strong public mental health system. Prescription drugs of every kind, heroin, meth, whatever. With the right counselling and support attached. I might be an idiot but pretty sure most crime will just go away, then we can spend proper resources to help and support (and punish when needed) the few offenders who really struggle to stay within the rules of society. T…

> There are a few genuinely 'bad people' out there. But it's vanishingly small.

70 million people voted for Donald Trump.