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Tell HN: Dont upload these images to iCloud as Apple will assume its Child Porn

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Re: Tell HN: Dont upload these images to iCloud as Apple will assume its Child Porn

#71

Post by dragonwriter »

zepto wrote: post #57
dragonwriter wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assumed that these are reverse engineered from legitimately illegal and problematic porn of known origin I would assume these were engineered by getting the perceptual hash valies, using distance from the hash values in the DB as an error function, and starting with an innocuous image and hash value, and iterating to a collision for each.

That technique can’t fool Apple’s algorithm. For what it’s worth, the null hypothesis is that they are just fakes and the commenter is at best trying to illustrate a point.

> For what it’s worth, the null hypothesis is that they are just fakes and the commenter is at best trying to illustrate a point.

No, that's not “the null hypothesis”. It is a positive claim.

Re: Tell HN: Dont upload these images to iCloud as Apple will assume its Child Porn

#72

Post by yreg »

post_break wrote: post #70
yreg wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"It's ok I have nothing to hide" I don't remember that ever being a popular take on reddit. But still, how do you know it's "the same people"? There are a lot of users who hold all kind of opinions.

I guess I meant that figuratively. The same genre of people who thought prism is ok because they have nothing to hide to give up privacy are now the same genre that think this privacy invasion is ok as well.

Ah I see, yes that makes sense.

Re: Tell HN: Dont upload these images to iCloud as Apple will assume its Child Porn

#74

Post by panarky »

baybal2 wrote: post #30
ReactiveJelly wrote: post #12

"Now you can block people in Drive. To prevent people from sharing unwanted files with you, ..." hahaha. What a coincidence, Google! So you got a hold of the neural hashes, and then used an error function and descent to generate images that match a 'hash'? It feels wrong to call them 'hashes' when they're so weak to pre-image attacks. They're not the same idea as cryptographic hashes at all. Also want to underline ho…

Don't forget how it started at Google. Long before they claimed that they scan email for child porn, they made an email scanner to appease China, on a condition they will not target dissidents. I think all remember how it went. Seeing their intimidation work, it only fired up the Chinese government, and led them to only increase their attempts at arm twisting, until Google clumsily pretended to "be tough" while still…

Don't forget how Google admitted their mistake and withdrew from the Chinese market.

Even though Google could have made a ton more money by helping China to build the tools of repression.

Don't forget that other large US corporations like Microsoft, Apple and Activision do build censorship tools and participate in repressing dissent.

Re: Tell HN: Dont upload these images to iCloud as Apple will assume its Child Porn

#75

Post by LucidLynx »

victor871129 wrote: post #50
LucidLynx wrote: post #14

Do you have any proof? The database of 200_000 images used by Apple (and others?) is private, and I did not found any trace of the hashes (but I could made a mistake here). So, how do you know that those correspond exactly (or with a certain threshold that has NOT been disclaimed by Apple) to the CSAM DB? Also, NeuralHash has NOT been released by Apple yet ( https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techn…

Im going to release 5 pieces of proof in the next 5 days

Thank you Mr Scam

Re: Tell HN: Dont upload these images to iCloud as Apple will assume its Child Porn

#76

Post by baybal2 »

panarky wrote: post #74
baybal2 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget how it started at Google. Long before they claimed that they scan email for child porn, they made an email scanner to appease China, on a condition they will not target dissidents. I think all remember how it went. Seeing their intimidation work, it only fired up the Chinese government, and led them to only increase their attempts at arm twisting, until Google clumsily pretended to "be tough" while still…

Don't forget how Google admitted their mistake and withdrew from the Chinese market. Even though Google could have made a ton more money by helping China to build the tools of repression. Don't forget that other large US corporations like Microsoft, Apple and Activision do build censorship tools and participate in repressing dissent.

> Don't forget how Google admitted their mistake and withdrew from the Chinese market.

Which I point to the decision they came inadvertently. It was their intention to play games with the regime which backfired on them, not vice versa.

Re: Tell HN: Dont upload these images to iCloud as Apple will assume its Child Porn

#77

Post by zepto »

dragonwriter wrote: post #71
zepto wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That technique can’t fool Apple’s algorithm. For what it’s worth, the null hypothesis is that they are just fakes and the commenter is at best trying to illustrate a point.

> For what it’s worth, the null hypothesis is that they are just fakes and the commenter is at best trying to illustrate a point. No, that's not “the null hypothesis”. It is a positive claim.

Yes it is the null hypothesis.

The poster is making a positive claim without evidence. Indeed the claim is unverifiable.

Reasonable priors lead fo a null hypothesis that they are at least simply mistaken.

This is without even taking into account other indicators of credibility or authority, or perverse incentives, as priors.

This is a rational use of ‘null hypothesis’, but it also matches the scientific use, which would be that the claim is spurious unless experiment shows otherwise.

In any case, we know that the poster is in fact wrong in their claim.

Re: Tell HN: Dont upload these images to iCloud as Apple will assume its Child Porn

#78

Post by yreg »

podric wrote: post #59
jsnell wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, seems like anyone clicking through is playing with fire. If the description is correct, posting the link is highly irresponsible. (It seems like the right thing to do would be to serve the content from a server the OP controls themselves.)

Maybe I'm an idiot but my curiosity got the best of me and I clicked the link. The photos just look like abstract modern art, although their perceptual hash may match that of known CSAM, I doubt that anyone who clicked the link will get into legal trouble even if Google flags that folder by detecting a perceptual hash match, as they will likely use real people to verify before taking legal action. Google has been rec…

I think the concern here isn’t legal trouble but getting banned by some automated system.

I’ve heard from googlers that once an account is nuked for suspected child abuse no one will ever want to touch it to find out whether the ban was legitimate.

Re: Tell HN: Dont upload these images to iCloud as Apple will assume its Child Porn

#79

Post by ASalazarMX »

411111111111111 wrote: post #24
ReactiveJelly wrote: post #12

"Now you can block people in Drive. To prevent people from sharing unwanted files with you, ..." hahaha. What a coincidence, Google! So you got a hold of the neural hashes, and then used an error function and descent to generate images that match a 'hash'? It feels wrong to call them 'hashes' when they're so weak to pre-image attacks. They're not the same idea as cryptographic hashes at all. Also want to underline ho…

Some? Literally all are clearly based on pornography. First is veg&butthole, then boobs, next is doggy style etc etc (edit: it seems the order isn't consistent. So I'm likely seeing different images then you.) You can go through them all and see the original pornography if you look at the shapes. To me, it looks more like they started with the real images and tweaked them to make them artsy.

I love this comment. I have no idea how these were generated, but even starting with random noise it's possible to end up with vaguely human shapes if that's what originated the hashes to begin with.

These images could be a joke, as I don't think we have a clear technical documentation of how these hashes are generated. Computer vision? Vectors? Face recognition software? It's definitely not a naive hash.

Edit: seeing the other comments in this thread referencing Twitter, it looks like it's more naive than expected, as the hash is resistant to resizing, but not to cropping. The implementation can change at Apple's discretion, though.

Re: Tell HN: Dont upload these images to iCloud as Apple will assume its Child Porn

#80

Post by salawat »

zepto wrote: post #57
dragonwriter wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assumed that these are reverse engineered from legitimately illegal and problematic porn of known origin I would assume these were engineered by getting the perceptual hash valies, using distance from the hash values in the DB as an error function, and starting with an innocuous image and hash value, and iterating to a collision for each.

That technique can’t fool Apple’s algorithm. For what it’s worth, the null hypothesis is that they are just fakes and the commenter is at best trying to illustrate a point.

How do you know? Do you have access to Apple's algorithms and an account to generate enough hits, and access to the safety vouchers and decryption system to verify your assertions?

I mean, if you're calling someone out, at least provide some evidence yourself. Short of a reproducible outcome, you're just as questionable in conclusion as the poster.

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