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First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

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Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other organizations may rip off the government much worse than universities. So what? It does not change the fact that science grants are subsidizing the rest of the university.

Hey look, another logical fallacy: The strawman. I was not just talking of government contracts. When large companies contract with other companies they don't quote overhead rates, but internal to any company I've ever heard of, the standard overhead to account in a bid is 2-4x the cost of resources. Second, your completely illogical reasoning ignores a basic fact that universities are a proven model of getting resea…

Please pay attention. The original author claimed philosophy students are subsidizing electron microscopes. I disagreed with this claim. You agree with me that the science grants are subsidizing the rest of the university, rather than the other way around.

Second, your completely illogical reasoning ignores a basic fact that universities are a proven model of getting research done at a much lower rate than companies...

If it's proven, then perhaps you could provide some proof?

Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#73
post #21

One thing that struck me strongly when taking a Philosophy of Technology course at my university (part of a concentration in philosophy) was that these philosophers really had no understanding of the technology they were trying to discuss. They'd simply latch on to something they heard--I recall "cybernetics" was one such topic--and misconstrue a bunch of news articles about it, then publish papers at each other defe…

I'm not sure what you're thinking of in particular, but I'm guessing that most talk about cybernetics in modern philosophy is derived from Heidegger's claim that in modernity, we lose any an ultimate referent for our chains of signification. Everything gets taken as for the sake of something else (e.g. as a resource to achieve some ends extrinsic to it), but there is no final "something else" to make it all meaningfu…

Perhaps. If the French school hadn't tried to use quantum mechanics in completely bizarre ways, leading many people to label them as wankers and thereby staining the entire profession, I might agree. The fact that the French view still persists 50 years later doesn't give me confidence.

Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#74
post #5

From the article: This is a key point to understand: philosophy, as a discipline, does not provide answers. Well, notwithstanding the fact that it certainly provides some answers, philosophy is more oriented towards learning how to come up with answers, and more importantly, learning how to recognize if the answer you’ve come up with is right or wrong. I have forgotten much of what my first year philosophy professor…

http://www.tracyfineart.com/usmc/philosophy_who_needs_it.htm

Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#75
post #5

From the article: This is a key point to understand: philosophy, as a discipline, does not provide answers. Well, notwithstanding the fact that it certainly provides some answers, philosophy is more oriented towards learning how to come up with answers, and more importantly, learning how to recognize if the answer you’ve come up with is right or wrong. I have forgotten much of what my first year philosophy professor…

I am often disapponted by the inadequacy of modern philosophy of mind to follow recent advances in neuroscience and the brain sciences in general. Many of them have inadequate knowledge of the fields or outright dismiss verified results in order to advance obscure entities such as "qualia", or to promote a dualistic view of the world. Some of them also like to use quantum mechanics as "correlates of consciousness", j…

Consciousness sure is a fundamental property of your universe.

Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey look, another logical fallacy: The strawman. I was not just talking of government contracts. When large companies contract with other companies they don't quote overhead rates, but internal to any company I've ever heard of, the standard overhead to account in a bid is 2-4x the cost of resources. Second, your completely illogical reasoning ignores a basic fact that universities are a proven model of getting resea…

Please pay attention. The original author claimed philosophy students are subsidizing electron microscopes. I disagreed with this claim. You agree with me that the science grants are subsidizing the rest of the university, rather than the other way around. Second, your completely illogical reasoning ignores a basic fact that universities are a proven model of getting research done at a much lower rate than companies.…

Ok let's try approaching this a different way for a moment. If all of that $1.8M in your example went to the electron microscope, and there was no overhead, how would any of the following be funded:

- the building housing the scope?

- The electricity used by the scope (non-negligible in this case)

- The staff to run it

- training to use it

- maintenece

- hr/legal/accounting services regarding the grant itself?

Furhter, without the above services, not only do you need to fund that stuff, you must now take time away from actually researching to hire those people (for free!), to manage those people and resources, and essentially not do science in order to save science from the evil humanities leeches.

My point, and the point you are conveniently being a disingenuous about, is that you can't just take some money and "do science" there is always going to be other factors necessarily involved.

As for proof of universities vs companies: I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but it is pretty strong. We do lots of research for various government groups, and I find it telling that when we first started working with the DOE on big grants, the were shocked at our overhead rates, which are half the national labs, and much less than other companies. Yet they are happy with our level of research, and have given us more research because they get a better "bang for their buck".

Similarly we had some pretty specialized work that needed to be done for one of our projects, so we considered having SAIC or Honeywell do some of that work. We couldn't because to get one engineer for 50% (half of every work day for a year) cost $500K (after overhead). For that we instead hire a good engineer, an appropriate work environment for him, and still had $200K to more tasks down the road. (not to mention the ability to get more grants in which that work is done now).

Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am often disapponted by the inadequacy of modern philosophy of mind to follow recent advances in neuroscience and the brain sciences in general. Many of them have inadequate knowledge of the fields or outright dismiss verified results in order to advance obscure entities such as "qualia", or to promote a dualistic view of the world. Some of them also like to use quantum mechanics as "correlates of consciousness", j…

Consciousness sure is a fundamental property of your universe.

The problem is some philosophers go so far as to suggest that consciousness is a fundamental property of the physical world that is only "detected" by brains, or that consciousness is in principle unexplainable. Imho, that's just rubbish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one way of looking at it, and certainly the scientific community would like to think so -- as if Kant and James did a bit of theoretical work that the scientists fleshed out in practice. But this is really quite naive, and when you look at the particulars, really one discipline has very little to do with the other. James certainly did lay the foundation for modern psychology, but to the extent that he did he w…

One might make a case about James being a scientist, however that's the sort of after the fact revision which Kuhn describes in Structure of Scientific Revolution. But there is no way to make that claim about Kant and Critique of Pure Reason. The logic underpinning such an argument - that Kant's view of the mind does not match popular current scientific theories and therefor does not constitute science - would also p…

"The logic underpinning such an argument - that Kant's view of the mind does not match popular current scientific theories and therefor does not constitute science - would also place Newton's Principia outside the realm of Physics."

That's an interesting parallel, but I think Newton/Kant is really apples/oranges (as it were). Kant's 'Copernican Revolution' notwithstanding, his a priori categories were highly speculative -- by definition -- and not really meant as a theoretical underpinning for a science of mind as much as an attempt to establish a reasonably defensible epistemology in the face of Hume's skepticism. Kant may have had hopes in a scientific direction, but in practice no scientist uses concrete, specific Kantian principles as a basis for research. Gestalt theory would be the closest attempt, but that's a pretty high-level appropriation. It had its day and retains some residual influence but certainly nothing on the order of Newton's fundamental laws in the world of physics.

But even if you consider Gestalt or some of the contemporary influence of phenomenology in certain psychological circles (and they are limited), the philosophical problems with Kant or James remain: Neither James' nor Kant's answers to Hume fully protect one from skepticism or solipsism. Husserl and his inheritors in the Phenomenological/Continental tradition fared better there, and certainly Husserl's entire endeavor was focused on Science and its epistemological problems -- but very little of the scientific community has done the difficult work of understanding Husserl. Kuhn/Popper/Lakatos it seems are much easier to digest.

Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#79
Funny, there was an article earlier on HN arguing about the merits and usefulness of studying philosophy....and in a CS/AI context:

http://chronicle.com/article/From-Technologist-to/128231/#

Maybe I'm biased, but I tend to find the arguments of a computer scientist much more compelling than that of an investment banker. Or anyone else versus an investment banker for that matter :)

Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please pay attention. The original author claimed philosophy students are subsidizing electron microscopes. I disagreed with this claim. You agree with me that the science grants are subsidizing the rest of the university, rather than the other way around. Second, your completely illogical reasoning ignores a basic fact that universities are a proven model of getting research done at a much lower rate than companies.…

Ok let's try approaching this a different way for a moment. If all of that $1.8M in your example went to the electron microscope, and there was no overhead, how would any of the following be funded: - the building housing the scope? - The electricity used by the scope (non-negligible in this case) - The staff to run it - training to use it - maintenece - hr/legal/accounting services regarding the grant itself? Furhte…

Of the items you mentioned, only rent, electricity and legal/accounting services pay are paid for by overhead.

HR services are charged directly to the grant - if a grad student receives $20k in salary (+ health benefits), the university charges about $50k to the grant. The staff to run the machine, training and maintenance are not paid for out of overhead. Also, PIs need to do their own grant accounting.

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