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Stop hating Java

andrzejonsoftware.blogspot.com

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Re: Stop hating Java

#71

Post by jerf »

nirvdrum wrote: post #40
andrewvc wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh really..... try building a large scale web app in Forth then. Tools matter, at every scale.

So your counter example is a relatively obscure language? I don't know Forth, but I'd imagine someone well-versed in it could handle the task. In any event I didn't say it was categorically the case. I said tends to be the case. We could go case / counter-case all day. I can bootstrap a project in Ruby or Python considerably faster than I can in Java. But when it comes time to scale, Java usually -- not always, but m…

If you honestly think there's no expressivity difference between Python and Java, you're still writing Java-in-Python. There are so many differences in expressivity I wouldn't even hardly know where to start describing them. The old 10-to-1 line advantage isn't a myth, line count matters (one of the only solid truths about software engineering we have proved with almost scientific rigor), and I've gotten more than 10-to-1 in some conversions I've done.

Re: Stop hating Java

#73

Post by equalarrow »

juliano_q wrote: post #42

Java had many problems with absurd over-engineering (aka EJB2) in the past. Even today, a LOT of legacy code is over-engineered and a pain to mantain. That said, it is possible to write thin apps with Java today, much by the innovations brought by SpringSource. Roo is a rails-like framework to Java that works really well, and the Spring container took out the word EJB from almost every new project. If I have to choos…

I have to profess I haven't coded in Java for about 5 years. But when I did, Spring and Hibernate are what drove the final nail in the coffin for me. I'm sure it's changed but after that experience, I never felt the need to revisit.

Kinda like that one girlfriend that messed you up so bad that once you got over everything and realized life was ok, you never felt like rolling by her house ever again. :)

Re: Stop hating Java

#74

Post by hello_moto »

programminggeek wrote: post #48

Java as a language is decent. It's boring. It is stagnant. I expect very little of it. Java EE is an atrocity and it is just an over-enginnered pile of garbage. Try play framework. I just finished a webapp in play and the whole experience has been awesome. IntelliJ + Play + MongoDB is AWESOME. I haven't messed with the Scala version, but I can imagine that Scala + Play is even more interesting. Either way, Java EE/EJ…

Which version of Java EE you refer to? Last time I checked, Java EE6 is pretty sweet.

Keep in mind that the latest EE6 spec and most modern Java frameworks make XML optional (supported only for backward compatibility or just because it's there).

Re: Stop hating Java

#75

Post by lucian1900 »

Maro wrote: post #15
chrisledet wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as the language goes, I agree with this but I'd take JVM over CLR anytime.

"but I'd take JVM over CLR anytime" Because of cross-platformity, or is there more?

Also, performance. Both the .NET and Mono JITs are still significantly behind HotSpot.

Re: Stop hating Java

#76

Post by djb_hackernews »

yock wrote: post #8

All you need to do to experience this first hand is go to one Ruby meetup. The roundtable introductions at my local Ruby brigade are often seasoned with AA-like declarations of soberness such as "Hi, I'm So-and-so and I've been Java-free since 2006." As a Java pro (and someone who really does like Java) it's a little disheartening. On one hand I know they don't really mean to belittle the technology that pays my bill…

I recently went on an interview for a Python dev position. I've been a full time Java developer for the last 5 years, working on some cool shit. However I enjoy python more for my hobby projects, having many live python projects, shipped python code, and a github account with my python code.

After some good natured ribbing that he 'doesn't hate Java developers, he just feels bad for them' He finally told me quite directly that he was apprehensive to move forward with me because hes worked with Java devs who made the jump to Python and they wrote Python code that looked like Java and he wasn't certain I'd be any different.

It was quite bizarre as he had access to a lot of my Python code.

Re: Stop hating Java

#77

Post by rawsyntax »

glassx wrote: post #45
xutopia wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in what is essentially a Java shop and the opposite is true for me. The Java programmers work on the data set and provide me with an API. My responsibility is to present the data using a Rails application in a sound UI and in the fastest way possible. They often make remarks about how Rails is easy and Java programming is where real men make their mark. I think this comes down to a need for people to feel prou…

The opposite is true for me too. I've had an Enterprise Java guy telling me once that "programming and Object Orientation got lost with those simpler, easy-to-use language and frameworks", referring to Ruby and Rails. I dunno about that. Alan Kay would probably say that it got lost with C++ and Java, but YMMV. Also, one word: speed. But... I don't really think it boils down to this, it's not like one is better than t…

JRuby is actually for projects that have a lot of existing java code. If you're programming ruby and all your existing code is in ruby... it's not necessarily a win, unless you happen to need a particular Java library for performance reasons.

Re: Stop hating Java

#78

Post by pueblo »

xutopia wrote: post #29
yock wrote: post #8

All you need to do to experience this first hand is go to one Ruby meetup. The roundtable introductions at my local Ruby brigade are often seasoned with AA-like declarations of soberness such as "Hi, I'm So-and-so and I've been Java-free since 2006." As a Java pro (and someone who really does like Java) it's a little disheartening. On one hand I know they don't really mean to belittle the technology that pays my bill…

I work in what is essentially a Java shop and the opposite is true for me. The Java programmers work on the data set and provide me with an API. My responsibility is to present the data using a Rails application in a sound UI and in the fastest way possible. They often make remarks about how Rails is easy and Java programming is where real men make their mark. I think this comes down to a need for people to feel prou…

Matches and lighters are easy, real men make their fire with their bare hands.

Re: Stop hating Java

#79

Post by mnutt »

St-Clock wrote: post #50
snorkel wrote: post #36

Two other reasons I avoid Java the dependencies ecosystem for a typical Java app is bloated and always changing, and it didn't really live up to the promise of write-once-run-anywhere. And by the way, the over-abstraction habit is really annoying when you're trying to write a simple util app and you can't just say foo = new Foo() instead you have to extra nonsense such as factory = new FooParamsFactory() then foopara…

"it didn't really live up to the promise of write-once-run-anywhere" Care to explain this one? All the code I have written for the past 10 years do not need to be recompiled and can run on Windows/Linux/Mac/*BSD 32 bit/64 bit. And I used IO, NIO, sockets, threads, files (not necessarily high-level stuff).

For non-gui work it mostly lives up to that promise, but if you're building a consumer app you end up having to do a lot of tweaking per-platform.

Re: Stop hating Java

#80

Post by Troll_Whisperer »

I may be the target of this article. I like Ruby quite a bit and I don't like Java at all. The word "hate" isn't quite appropriate, but here's my problem with Java:

I hate how much work Java makes me do to get things done.

It doesn't matter if you're writing "hello world", an English to pig-latin converter, a web server or a lisp interpreter. In every case, it's a lot less code and a lot less work to do in Ruby than it is in Java. Java is just too low-level of a language for anything I'm working on, and in those cases where I do need to get closer to the metal, it's easy enough just to use C.

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