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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

theatlantic.com

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Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#71

Post by wutbrodo »

Guest42 wrote: post #13
wutbrodo wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you skipped a step here. Why would needing to move to a city and use computers cause "toxic" behavior?

My interpreting of the use of the word “toxic” is that there is an unbridgeable communication and understanding gap between generations when it comes to professional opportunities. In 2009, I had someone in the older generation tell me that success is simple, just have to get a temp job like they did in finance and rent an apartment.

I agree to some degree, but what I don't get is the mechanism by which that's assumed to translate into toxicity, let alone enough toxicity to engender estrangement. Parents not understanding their children's world is as old as time, or at least as old as industrialization.

I experienced this myself to a pretty significant degree, and I wouldn't describe my parents' misunderstanding of the modern economy as "toxic" in any way, so my personal data point is not helpful here. Hence my question: what is the mechanism by which this understanding gap is assumed to lead to toxic behavior?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#72

Post by mbg721 »

octostone wrote: post #20
cogman10 wrote: post #8

As someone that was raised in a highly religious home, I have to wonder how much of estrangement has to do with the younger generation's abandonment of religion. Go to nearly any church and you'll see the primary demographic is older individuals. In my younger days, it was quite a bit more even. Millennials and Gen Z have dumped religion and with it a lot of the social norms. For example, homosexuality. Most Millenni…

On mobile so I can’t look now, but from what I recall the people who have looked into it (and quite a few have) find that the causal relationship goes in the other direction, at least in the US —- young people have abandoned religion because of religions treatment of homosexuals, women (including access to abortion), and, for white evangelicals, their treatment of racial minorities. Religious organizations in the US…

Isn't that abandonment of religion exactly the same estrangement that the article is talking about? The sexual revolution is all about realizing an identity built around personal growth and happiness; the young people who have bought into that idea have high expectations of religion, but get disillusioned with these organizations' failings and cut them off.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#73

Post by iammisc »

throwaway284534 wrote: post #14

IMO, these parents are often narcissistic people who aren’t prepared or even capable of recognizing what their grown children want from them. Ironically, both sides want the same kind of acceptance from one another: “Will you unconditionally accept me and my lifestyle?” “Will you accept that I’m not fully capable of understanding your needs, and therefore cannot respect you as you’d like?” Contemporary expectations a…

> They may not admit it, but they’re not looking for a stronger relationship as equals

Your parents will never be your equals. Have you considered that your expectations of equality are themselves a misaligned cultural values?

My goodness, my mother was deferential to my grandmother up until the day she died.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#75

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway284534 wrote: post #14

IMO, these parents are often narcissistic people who aren’t prepared or even capable of recognizing what their grown children want from them. Ironically, both sides want the same kind of acceptance from one another: “Will you unconditionally accept me and my lifestyle?” “Will you accept that I’m not fully capable of understanding your needs, and therefore cannot respect you as you’d like?” Contemporary expectations a…

[deleted]

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#76

Post by elmomle »

UncleMeat wrote: post #49
everdrive wrote: post #26

>Estranged parents often tell me that their adult child is rewriting the history of their childhood, accusing them of things they didn’t do, and/or failing to acknowledge the ways in which the parent demonstrated their love and commitment. Adult children frequently say the parent is gaslighting them by not acknowledging the harm they caused or are still causing, failing to respect their boundaries, and/or being unwil…

I think it is easy to look at this and say "wow, look at these dumb young people". But when I look around at people I know who are in this spot, the responses from parents has been truly awful. I know people whose parents have physically beaten them yet the parents still insist they were loving and cannot understand why their child broke the relationship. I know people whose parents raised them to be racist and are n…

Agreed. When you are trying to communicate in an empathic/emotional way and the other party does not understand how to do this and defends themselves in an intellectual/unemotional way, your emotional need is profoundly unmet. This falls short of intentional gaslighting, but to critique the party seeking empathy as childish misses the point.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#77

Post by twiddling »

tablespoon wrote: post #44
cogman10 wrote: post #8

As someone that was raised in a highly religious home, I have to wonder how much of estrangement has to do with the younger generation's abandonment of religion. Go to nearly any church and you'll see the primary demographic is older individuals. In my younger days, it was quite a bit more even. Millennials and Gen Z have dumped religion and with it a lot of the social norms. For example, homosexuality. Most Millenni…

> As someone that was raised in a highly religious home, I have to wonder how much of estrangement has to do with the younger generation's abandonment of religion. Honestly, there's probably a deeper cultural change that's driving both: ever increasing individualism and increasing unwillingness to sacrifice the expression of that individualism for anything. This from the OP was pretty poignant and struck me as very t…

> Honestly, there's probably a deeper cultural change that's driving both: ever increasing individualism and increasing unwillingness to sacrifice the expression of that individualism for anything.

2020 with the US election and the spectrum of response to COVID has thrown this into stark relief. As someone in their late 40s, I have been shocked by the selfishness of my fellow citizens.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#78

Post by pjc50 »

UncleMeat wrote: post #49
everdrive wrote: post #26

>Estranged parents often tell me that their adult child is rewriting the history of their childhood, accusing them of things they didn’t do, and/or failing to acknowledge the ways in which the parent demonstrated their love and commitment. Adult children frequently say the parent is gaslighting them by not acknowledging the harm they caused or are still causing, failing to respect their boundaries, and/or being unwil…

I think it is easy to look at this and say "wow, look at these dumb young people". But when I look around at people I know who are in this spot, the responses from parents has been truly awful. I know people whose parents have physically beaten them yet the parents still insist they were loving and cannot understand why their child broke the relationship. I know people whose parents raised them to be racist and are n…

Indeed. Everyone I know who is estranged from their parents is because they "came out" and the parents failed to cope.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#79

Post by remir »

The social structures are slowly disintagrating because their foundations were weak anyways. Religion and culture only masked it for a while.

Everything is temporary in life and being a parent is a temporary role. A parent's job is to initiate the child to the world, teach them how to navigate it and how to be a functional member of society. In short, the parent's job is to help the child be as independant of them as possible.

When the child is an adult, the relationship must evolve. A lot of people fail to understand that, because being a parent is part of their identity. If you take that away from them, they have nothing left because they haven't cultivated anything else. This is a mistake.

It is good to see people seek counceling on these issues. It show they have the intention to recognize something is wrong and are willing to put the effort to find resolution.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#80

Post by everdrive »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #53
everdrive wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference would be the good faith of the argument. It's not gaslighting if someone believes I have my facts wrong, or my take on the situation is wrong. It WOULD be gaslighting if someone thought my take on the situation was correct, but claimed that I was wrong in order to sew doubt in me.

Well, isn't there some boundary at which a belief is completely unreasonable?

In the original definition, a "gaslighter" would have to know and agree on the same facts as the victim, and then intentionally lie about them to sew doubt in the victim's mind. In your scenario, the "jerk" (for lack of a better term here, since he is not a classical gaslighter) honestly believes that the victim is incorrect, and is arguing from good faith. Good faith arguments can certainly be wrong, and can certainly be awful.

[edit]

I suppose I take such a hard line on this because it's childish to think that people will always empathize with you, and agree with your take on things. Quite often, the opposite will happen. This is a regular occurrence, and does not constitute abuse. Sometimes when no one agrees with you, it means you're in the wrong and you need to rethink your take on the situation. Other times, an individual can be in the right while others are wrong. This sort of conflict will be a normal part of someone's life. Further, some situations do not have a strictly "wrong" or "right," and simply constitute competing values and perspectives.

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