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We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

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Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#71

Post by mywittyname »

lastofthemojito wrote: post #12

I think a lot of the responses to the straw man's questions are reasonable and thoughtful. But I think this sentiment: >I don't want to change the way I work, I just want people to join me in the office. My kids are driving me crazy. Is it weird to say I'm lonely; I miss my office friends. Deserves more respect. There are lot of types of people out there, and it seems like at least some of them are energized by being…

What ever happened to social clubs? I remember my grandpa was a member of the Knights of Columbus and would frequently go there to socialize / network. I feel like these clubs used to be pretty common: Scouts, Rotary Club, Moose/Elk Lodge, KoC, Veterans of Foreign Wars (which no longer requires members to be former military), and local cultural/historical clubs are pretty prevalent.

I've been to a lot of these clubs at the invite of friends, but found that most of the members are 60+. Maybe these clubs need to get out there and advertise themselves to a younger audience, because it's quite clear that many people need the social outlets that these provide. Plus, dancing is fun and people should do more of it.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#72

Post by librish »

luffapi wrote: post #66
librish wrote: post #53

"I can't let me team work from home, they might not work hard." "Maybe you should work to improve what you measure and how you encourage feedback. It is normally a good idea to have ways to tell if people are doing a good job for what you are paying them to do." Measuring this stuff is really, really hard. If you're a manager who's non-technical it's almost impossible. No-one is saying that you can't slack off while…

> Sure, you can take the position that it's managements responsibility to figure this out and fire you but understand that this type of thing is why many companies are against remote, especially with how vehemently most developers reject any form of tracking. The position to take that leads not just to a successful wfh environment, but a great work environment in general is to not worry about “slacking off”. People a…

I think that assumes that you have reasonably self-motivating employees and work that is often interesting which definitely isn't always the case.

How do you suggest a non-technical manager tells slacking apart from when things just take unexpectedly longer?

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#73

Post by mrfusion »

system16 wrote: post #10

I have a ridiculous sounding but very important to me reason for my preference to work at home: bowel movements. I worked with a small team in a small office. Everybody is typically at their desk in silence with the occasional manager or sales person on the phone. At predictable intervals throughout the day, someone will get up and be gone extra long. You know, and everybody else knows, they've gone for a number 2. O…

This sounds like a Seinfeld episode! You really need a new job.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#74

Post by Grimm1 »

ecf wrote: post #55
lastofthemojito wrote: post #12

I think a lot of the responses to the straw man's questions are reasonable and thoughtful. But I think this sentiment: >I don't want to change the way I work, I just want people to join me in the office. My kids are driving me crazy. Is it weird to say I'm lonely; I miss my office friends. Deserves more respect. There are lot of types of people out there, and it seems like at least some of them are energized by being…

On the contrary, I feel it deserves LESS respect. Treating the office as an escape from an undesirable at-home situation and then having the audacity to try to force more people to be in-person is incredibly selfish behavior. If these people truly need that social interaction, how about putting more effort into community/personal relationships instead of workplace relationships?

For what it's worth, without the word option being emphasized here, yours is an equally selfish desire because it brings harm to that person or group of people who prefer the office experience. I liked working in an office, sorry you don't.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#75

Post by minikites »

librish wrote: post #53

"I can't let me team work from home, they might not work hard." "Maybe you should work to improve what you measure and how you encourage feedback. It is normally a good idea to have ways to tell if people are doing a good job for what you are paying them to do." Measuring this stuff is really, really hard. If you're a manager who's non-technical it's almost impossible. No-one is saying that you can't slack off while…

>Measuring this stuff is really, really hard. If you're a manager who's non-technical it's almost impossible.

The job of a manager is supposed to be hard, that's why it pays well. If you want an easy job, do something else.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#76

Post by marcosdumay »

throwaway284534 wrote: post #68
dvt wrote: post #11

There's a lot of vested interest in making people go back to the office. First, in large corporations, there's an entire army of middle managers that essentially do nothing but political machinations, micro-managing, and are the very definition of "market inefficiency." This has been accepted as a necessary evil of mega-corps but remote work threatens this delicate balance. Second, there's also a lot of external pres…

You’re right on just about everything, especially the external pressures that come with a fancy office. After 10 years of writing software, I’ve realized that being in an office is the opposite of productive when it comes to coding. The office is where your more career driven peers climb the hierarchy through soft skills, currying favors with each meeting and business lunch. This might sound a little like a brag but…

> Doing it remotely is a bit harder, but it’s possible if you’re especially power hungry.

The entire problem is that the set of people that are good at the online game is not the same as the physical game, thus the people that already got the power by playing the physical one will do anything to stop changing the rules.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#77

Post by luffapi »

librish wrote: post #72
luffapi wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, you can take the position that it's managements responsibility to figure this out and fire you but understand that this type of thing is why many companies are against remote, especially with how vehemently most developers reject any form of tracking. The position to take that leads not just to a successful wfh environment, but a great work environment in general is to not worry about “slacking off”. People a…

I think that assumes that you have reasonably self-motivating employees and work that is often interesting which definitely isn't always the case. How do you suggest a non-technical manager tells slacking apart from when things just take unexpectedly longer?

Things take as long as they take. Certainly, they will take longer if a “non technical manager” is cracking the whip on the team.

Hire good people, managers included. Keep trust high. Keep motivation high and keep autonomy high and I assure you software will get produced at a high quality.

Software development is a high leverage creative field. You want to maximize for developer flow, creativity and comfort.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#78

Post by strbean »

system16 wrote: post #10

I have a ridiculous sounding but very important to me reason for my preference to work at home: bowel movements. I worked with a small team in a small office. Everybody is typically at their desk in silence with the occasional manager or sales person on the phone. At predictable intervals throughout the day, someone will get up and be gone extra long. You know, and everybody else knows, they've gone for a number 2. O…

Clearly the answer to this issue in the office is to obfuscate by regularly going to the bathroom for 45 minutes to sit on your phone.

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#79

Post by amotinga »

WFHRenaissance wrote: post #33
system16 wrote: post #10

I have a ridiculous sounding but very important to me reason for my preference to work at home: bowel movements. I worked with a small team in a small office. Everybody is typically at their desk in silence with the occasional manager or sales person on the phone. At predictable intervals throughout the day, someone will get up and be gone extra long. You know, and everybody else knows, they've gone for a number 2. O…

This, and being able to shower whenever I want, and being able to put on presentable clothing for a Zoom call but then return to my sweatpants or even go topless... these sort of things are the reason I want to work from home. Maybe I'm crazy , or maladjusted, or maybe this is just the optimal way for me to work.

Yes, agree. I can list a lot of simple things like that

Re: We Can't Let People Work from Home, for Stupid Reasons

#80

Post by jeremyjh »

mattbk1 wrote: post #63
ecf wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I feel it deserves LESS respect. Treating the office as an escape from an undesirable at-home situation and then having the audacity to try to force more people to be in-person is incredibly selfish behavior. If these people truly need that social interaction, how about putting more effort into community/personal relationships instead of workplace relationships?

I think the word "option" probably needs to be emphasized more here. My workplace is moving toward hybrid, which allows this option. > That won't be for everyone. But there might be a sizeable enough cohort that performs better in the office that it'll be a good option for some companies.

No, the option GP is referring to is the option for the company to decide everyone is working at the office, not for it to be optional for the employees.
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