Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's more like someone who habitually uses power in a mean way.
There's a difference between someone who is naturally mean and happens to be in power and someone that uses meanness to get power.
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Apology
71–80 of 282 posts
Re: Apology
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
If this isn't a real apology then what would you say a real apology looks like? Of the many public apologies I've read in the past this reads like an honest, genuine one. He admitted guilt, explained what he did wrong and did not try to justify it, and clearly stated that he apologizes. What's missing?
Six parts to a real apology: Expression of regret. "I am truly sorry." - Check. Explanation of what went wrong. "I must have directed angry words at you, who clearly had nothing to do with how the day had gone." - This is weaselly. "I must have...", not "I did". Acknowledgment of responsibility. " I clearly forget that I am the oldest and most experienced—and I should act this way in a post-mortem conversation." - We…
Request for forgiveness. - Nothing here either.
Well, I personally think asking for forgiveness is manipulative and shitty behavior. An apology should be about doing right by someone you wronged, not closing with "And last but not least: What's in it for me?!"
If they forgive you, coolios. Though it might take them more than five minutes just like it took apparently months for this apology to happen, so they don't need to promptly give you a fucking pat on the head like we give five year olds a cookie to reward desired behavior or some crap.
Re: Apology
#73Re: Apology
#74An apology is a good first step and I'm glad he's taken it. There are several remaining steps, including gathering feedback, developing an improvement plan, and implementing it. I hope Felleisen will take these steps too.
Precisely this. I did get the feeling that the appology was heartfelt. I also felt the appology failed to recognize the that the complaint was about a sustained set of issues and not a one time incident.
The lack of any discussion of what Fellleisen and Racket will try to do going forward was glaringly missing, particularly becuase Felleisen couldn't independently identify the mistakes that he made and required outside observers to understand where the person he bullied was comming from.
I feel like a lot of damage would have been minimized if there had been people in that meeting who had made clear how out-of-line the behavior was immediately so that Felleisen could have immediately addressed the issue and hopefully learned from it.
Re: Apology
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
I really think people need to learn to push back, and talk plainly. This could have easily been a blog called "that time Felleisen was being a cunt and I told him to go fuck himself" and been 1/4 the length.
If you expect people to do things they don't feel comfortable doing, you will repeatedly be disappointed. If you are depending on coworkers to go outside their comfort zone, you will lose coworkers (and probably feel they are undependable). Even if you are right and this person is "too sensitive" in some way, they were also an important contributor who has left a project where they no longer felt comfortable. No one…
> No one owes it to any of us to "put up" with how we treat them.
No, however we do owe it to ourselves to learn better how to push back on difficult people. It’s a form of self defense because difficult people, or people having a bad day and lashing out, are not going away.
Re: Apology
#76Summary of several HN replies: “Yeah, yeah, whatever. Saying you’re sorry doesn’t cut it. You need to pay for it before we will accept your apology.” Hence, cancel culture. Edit: There’s no need to therefor assume the dude is totally changed based on one apology, but good grief people. The lesson I’m learning here is, “Never apologize. It will do no good and will simply drag the situation out longer.”
The main things lacking are an acknowledgement of the pattern of bullying and a commitment to change.
Suffering is not mandatory, though personally I would be very pained to learn I had this sort of impact on someone.
Re: Apology
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's more like someone who habitually uses power in a mean way.
There's a difference between someone who is naturally mean and happens to be in power and someone that uses meanness to get power.
The point is if you're in power it's more important to not behave badly than if you're not in power.
It's also easier in some ways, because you can get help from experienced outsiders who have a stake in your success and you can afford to experiment with improvement methods without getting fired. There are ways in which it's harder, such as if employees are too scared to tell you when you're being nasty.
Re: Apology
#78I’m so surprised at the vitriol in these comments. He spoke to others about the situation and apologized. What more can a person do?
What more can a person do? Just off the top of my head:
He could have addressed the full substance of the blog post, which was a pattern of "intentional, personalized abuse and bullying" with "incidents were numerous, happening over a period of years".
He could have used this incident to reflect on his broader behavior not just toward this one person but more generally.
He could have talked the steps he was taking to make sure he did less harm in the future.
He could have asked for forgiveness.
He could have offered to make amends to Matthew Butterick, to repair the relationship.
He could have recognized that this harmed not just Butterick, but the broader community around the project. He could ask that community for help identifying other times he was abusive. He could apologize for that too and work to make amends there as well.
He could have addressed this bit: "Nor did any member of Racket’s core team hold him to account. Everyone just shrugged and moved on. I was encouraged to do the same." In particular, he could recognize that he was part of a social structure that not only accepted abusive behavior but actually enabled it.
Once recognizing that, he could work to change the system such that abusive behavior was no longer tolerated.
And that's off the top of my head.
Re: Apology
#79@dang could we please unflag this? If the original message stayed up and was not flagged, this should remain too.
Re: Apology
#80Context: Why I no longer contribute to Racket . https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27531508
I really think people need to learn to push back, and talk plainly. This could have easily been a blog called "that time Felleisen was being a cunt and I told him to go fuck himself" and been 1/4 the length.
Matthew Butterick said he pushed back, and that members of the Racket core team simply asked him to move on.