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Europe's Software Problem

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Re: Europe's Software Problem

#71

Post by BlargMcLarg »

MangoCoffee wrote: post #42
pilsetnieks wrote: post #25

I take offense at such massive overgeneralizations as "Europe lacks imagination." What it lacks is freely flowing funding such that risky enterprises can be funded even if 1 out of ten or 1 out of hundred actually are successful. This kills business models which cannot show any profit whatsoever, and a large portion of the remainder are killed by data regulations forbidding "alternate paths of monetization" (to put i…

>risky enterprises can be funded even if 1 out of ten or 1 out of hundred actually are successful correct me if i'm wrong, Europe is dominated by legacy business/banks that normally won't take such risk. legacy business like BMW. European and Asian want to see you have some success or already making money before they invest. while American will throw money into something that just an idea.

The entire culture is based around "legacy" and "experience". Truth is, Europeans are extremely risk-averse and favor legacy, with grants, laws and such reflecting that. That said, Europeans will throw money at an "idea", as long as that idea is approved by peers. They'll even die with that idea, once invested.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#72

Post by notanormalnerd »

open-source-ux wrote: post #51

Although the EU is a marketplace of 27 countries, it is not a digitally homogeneous marketplace. Adoption and acceptance of digital tools varies by country. Language is also important - the tech giants localise their apps and tools. But many software companies in larger European countries (France, Germany, Italy, Spain etc) concentrate on their home country first before they focus on international reach. That makes s…

I want to highlight this.

There is always talk about a european market, but it is more like 27 markets with one access ticket.

You have 27 languages, 27 cultures, 27 political systems, 27 markets, 27 levels of development and infrastructure. Although you have a market of 300 million consumers, they all have different spending habits, different spending power, different needs...

America is one market of 300 million people, with roughly the same culture, the same language, the same laws and political system and has been exporting it's language and power through out the last 100 years, so your market is probably double the size of your population.

There is also success stories of european players: Zalando, Delivery Hero. Sap has some very innovative departments, but their Reputation all in all is shite, yes.

Also most of souther europe doesn't have the get rich quick mentality. They live by "dolce vita" - the good life. Nobody is gonna be bending over backwards here to become a millionaire anytime soon. They happily live with 20k€ a year and their families and Relationships.

I still hate the shitty software we make here in europe/germany but we are working hard here to improve that. And if a european company tells you they offer a API or Service, they probably wont shut it down because it went out of falvour this month.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#73

Post by tzs »

dharmaturtle wrote: post #35

PG has a related essay: Why Startups Condense in America http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html He actually has several essays on how to try to create a Silicon Valley in other geographic areas, but this seemed the most relevant. tldr: 1. The US Allows Immigration. 2. The US Is a Rich Country. 3. The US Is Not (Yet) a Police State. 4. American Universities Are Better. 5. You Can Fire People in America. 6. In America…

I remember reading a similar article a very long time ago, back when "reading an article" usually meant reading it on paper so have no recollection of where or how to cite it, and it had a similar list.

One that stood out was that in Silicon Valley having your company go under was not really much of a setback, if at all.

In many other places in the US that looked like they had the ingredients to be a Silicon Valley if you led your company to bankruptcy, that was what did them in. The money folks would not be interested in financing you again, and you'd stop getting invited to the social and business events that the successful people get invited to so your ability to network would take a huge hit.

Startups in those places tended to be focused on safe things like trying to do something slightly better in an already well established area.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#74

Post by jpttsn »

pilsetnieks wrote: post #25

I take offense at such massive overgeneralizations as "Europe lacks imagination." What it lacks is freely flowing funding such that risky enterprises can be funded even if 1 out of ten or 1 out of hundred actually are successful. This kills business models which cannot show any profit whatsoever, and a large portion of the remainder are killed by data regulations forbidding "alternate paths of monetization" (to put i…

> What it lacks is freely flowing funding such that risky enterprises can be funded even if 1 out of ten or 1 out of hundred actually are successful

Might this be a flip side of regulations that combat economic inequality?

If so, the two should not be addressed as separate issues. But frontpage HN posts tend to be "Applauding Europes' long vacations and progressive taxes" and "Bemoaning Europe's lack of VCs with fuck you money".

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#75

Post by bandris »

bandris wrote: post #63
Mary-Jane wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the FAANGs are American companies, and they've all been pushing the boundaries. What do you feel America has lost in this respect?

The US and California in particular lost it's appeal. 20 years ago it was the dream destination for many. Now, even some Indians steer away. I don't know a single European who would want to live in the US. Not even from Eastern Europe. The go-to place is London, Berlin, Stockholm, Amsterdam, etc. FAANGS were started 1-2 decades ago. In past 5 years the trend changed. Ask PG. He will never move back to the US. And no,…

To give an example: I was among the first airbnb users when it started. In the past few years I used booking.com more because I liked both their website and booking experience better. And yes, they offer private accomodation. Booking.com improved a lot while airbnb stagnated. I admit that I am not the target audiance for the airbnb "experiences" feature though.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#76

Post by zerkten »

imNotTheProb wrote: post #34
jacob2484 wrote: post #27

Europe lacks the US bankruptcy laws which encourage risk-taking that is needed in this space

They don't have LLCs?

LLCs aren't really relevant to this. The poster was commenting on bankruptcy laws with the assumption of familiarity. You can check out articles like https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10657-006-8978-..., but the gist is that bankruptcy in the US is forgiving versus being a terminal state in Europe. This is both in law and in society.

Once someone has gone bankrupt in Europe, they are historically, are a pariah. They will struggle to get financing to take a risk with another company. This is on top of a risk-averse system that generally places much higher requirements on non-bankrupt people seeking financing.

Compare this to the situation in the US. Here there is relatively easy access to financing at all sizes of organization. It only noticeably tightens when there is a recession or there are very serious issues with the founders. When a company fails there are more options for recovery, sell-off, acquisition, etc. Labor law permits companies to jettison all employees easily too in certain situations whereas that is much more difficult in Europe. Although this is starting to get away from pure bankruptcy law it overlaps.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#77

Post by pjc50 »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #61

> If Europe wants to have its citizens (and companies) rely significantly on European-operated software, it has no choice but to develop better software, NEVER in my 30+ years as a user of computer networks or communication programs I have seen the "better software" win. It has always been the most marketing, the most shady ethics, or anything else that lead to the strongest network effect.

Following this, I think it might be instructive to ask what happened to EU tech successes that have failed. Nokia and the famous "burning platform", for example. Was it the case that natural market competition leads to there being only room for two phone OSs?

And a far more controversial question: would it be allowed? Or would a successful European world-dominating quasi-monopoly on the FAANG scale get banned from the US market? We've seen twitches in that direction (remember the "Tiktok will be forced to sell to Oracle" nonsense?). Or in the aerospace market, things like https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/26/bombardier-... or https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32542140 ; Boeing vs Airbus shenanigans go back a long way.

I found out the other day that one of the UK's longstanding tech companies collapsed after accidentally buying a CIA front organization for illegal arms sales: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferranti#Collapse

Or ARM: are they an "EU" tech success any more? As their ownership is passed from Japanese Softbank to US NVIDIA.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#78

Post by qsort »

selfhoster11 wrote: post #12
thiago_fm wrote: post #4

This problem will never get fixed. The author forgot to mention in depth the main reason why EU isn't even in the game: culture. In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. A lot of third world countries are years ahead of the whole EU continent in that aspect. I say this because I live in Europe for the q…

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% and the indispensable knowledge worker class that can't be automated away or juiced dry for all the productivity they are capa…

Not going to comment on anything else since "flexible working laws" and "less relaxing lifestyle" can mean anything, but "light a fire under their ass until they are forced to innovate" is unironically and unapologetically good.

If there's one thing that consistently fosters innovation and progress it's competition. That's something that holds true everywhere. Software, industry, education, games, sports, you name it.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#79

Post by brigandish »

dopidopHN wrote: post #62
slavoingilizov wrote: post #13

"Since all communication platforms are now free, the only way to get people to use competitive European software and services is to also offer these for free, and to make sure this technology is very good and compelling" I have never seen a government or any regulation deliver anything "good and compelling", or take any other action to "make sure" someone else delivers it.

[flagged]

> I appreciate that child labor have been regulated out of the greedy hands of our capitalist overlords.

Child labour ended because of capitalism. The increased income and power that begets then allowed for child labour laws to come in - it certainly didn't happen in pre-industrial societies or capitalists wouldn't have been able to employ them in the first place. Same goes for slavery, not only did economic pressure from increasing automation make it less viable but the increased wealth and power of people within society who were opposed to it meant slavery was finally ended by the most capitalistic societies the world has ever seen.

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