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Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

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Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#71
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was responding to your blanket statement-- that is what got us here. You're still avoiding the hard question about all laws being conditions on freedom. As for public gatherings? Sure: they can interfere with my freedom to go about my life. They might prevent me from leaving my home. They might cause dangerous situations. A reasonable level of oversight helps to minimize that sort of thing. Lisbon went well beyond…

> But there are the difficult questions: keeping things safe, inappropriate interference... these are places where lines have to be drawn. They are gray areas. They take human judgement because one-size-fits-all policies don't actually fit all. This is a fundamental problem for civil society because people differ in their beliefs on where to draw the line. And people are fallible, they can make mistakes in judgement.…

You are ignoring my answer about how gatherings or protests can impact my own freedom. Any freedom has that potential. I listed some, but here are more:

What if I want to hold a gathering in the same place at the same time? Which gathering gets the space? Why should my freedom to assemble be limited because of your freedom to assemble? That's an issue that getting a permit resolves: simple scheduling of resources.

Maybe the protest is against a business I work for: What about my freedom to go to work without people shouting at me about how awful I am for working there?

Maybe the protest causes extra traffic at a busy time of day. I have a heart attack and die because the extra traffic meant the ambulance couldn't get there on time. My right to life was taken away because of the gathering, but it's an easy issue to resolve by with a permit process to ensure minimal disruptions.

What if the gathering is in the middle of the street because they're protesting building the road further through natural lands? My freedom of free movement is taken away.

I can go on and on about how something as seemingly simple as freedom of assembly has the potential to impact other people's freedom, because freedom is not as simple as you want it to be.

You insist things are black and white but when I point out a complexity, you ignore it except to repeat yourself in different ways. You have not provided any actual justification. You say that a freedom is not a freedom if there are preconditions but never answer the issue of how all laws are preconditions on freedom.

The questions I raise are not philosophical: you cannot rationally make any claims about freedom if you have not thought through these very basic issues. If you have not examined these questions then your opinions are built on air and emotion, not clear thinking and reason.

I'm done here though. Feel free to respond, but I won't reply only to have you repeat yourself and ignore anything that contradicts your wish for things to be black and white.

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#72
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there are the difficult questions: keeping things safe, inappropriate interference... these are places where lines have to be drawn. They are gray areas. They take human judgement because one-size-fits-all policies don't actually fit all. This is a fundamental problem for civil society because people differ in their beliefs on where to draw the line. And people are fallible, they can make mistakes in judgement.…

You are ignoring my answer about how gatherings or protests can impact my own freedom. Any freedom has that potential. I listed some, but here are more: What if I want to hold a gathering in the same place at the same time? Which gathering gets the space? Why should my freedom to assemble be limited because of your freedom to assemble? That's an issue that getting a permit resolves: simple scheduling of resources. Ma…

[deleted]

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#73
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there are the difficult questions: keeping things safe, inappropriate interference... these are places where lines have to be drawn. They are gray areas. They take human judgement because one-size-fits-all policies don't actually fit all. This is a fundamental problem for civil society because people differ in their beliefs on where to draw the line. And people are fallible, they can make mistakes in judgement.…

You are ignoring my answer about how gatherings or protests can impact my own freedom. Any freedom has that potential. I listed some, but here are more: What if I want to hold a gathering in the same place at the same time? Which gathering gets the space? Why should my freedom to assemble be limited because of your freedom to assemble? That's an issue that getting a permit resolves: simple scheduling of resources. Ma…

> Maybe the protest is against a business I work for: What about my freedom to go to work without people shouting at me about how awful I am for working there?

Then, you bear with it. You are a big boy.

> Maybe the protest causes extra traffic at a busy time of day. I have a heart attack and die because the extra traffic meant the ambulance couldn't get there on time. My right to life was taken away because of the gathering, but it's an easy issue to resolve by with a permit process to ensure minimal disruptions.

> What if I want to hold a gathering in the same place at the same time? Which gathering gets the space? Why should my freedom to assemble be limited because of your freedom to assemble? That's an issue that getting a permit resolves: simple scheduling of resources.

You are nitpicking

> how all laws are preconditions on freedom.

Indeed they are. You will have no parliament, and parliamentarians to complain about in the first place if you lose the state apparatus to an usurper.

I defeated your argument.

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#74
What’s amazing is the wrongdoers blame a 70s law, when GDPR is place, and well know. The only legitimate entity to receive such information was PSP(the police responsible) no one else, not even the government.

For me this is the tip of the iceberg, privacy violations in city councils can be used for personal gains and organized crime.

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A municipality is not the government. These are low level bureaucrats.

I would think if I was in this type of position, it would strike me as odd and a very not okay thing to do. Maybe the immersion in that kind of world creates a kind of indifference or inability to think outside of the context of bureaucratic protocols.

At one time one guy sent it to some embassy on a whim of the moment, then his follower just took over the habit. Bureaucracy doesn't require much thinking.

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#76
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are ignoring my answer about how gatherings or protests can impact my own freedom. Any freedom has that potential. I listed some, but here are more: What if I want to hold a gathering in the same place at the same time? Which gathering gets the space? Why should my freedom to assemble be limited because of your freedom to assemble? That's an issue that getting a permit resolves: simple scheduling of resources. Ma…

> Maybe the protest is against a business I work for: What about my freedom to go to work without people shouting at me about how awful I am for working there? Then, you bear with it. You are a big boy. > Maybe the protest causes extra traffic at a busy time of day. I have a heart attack and die because the extra traffic meant the ambulance couldn't get there on time. My right to life was taken away because of the ga…

You did not defeat that persons argument. I do think that you just repeated your earlier absolutist views and demonstrated nothing further. You did not substantively address the issues raised by merely dismissing them. I’m not the original party here, so I don’t really care that much, but your debate style leaves actual debate to be desired, being th equivalent of “nope because I said so, so there” which doesn’t really address anything, IMO

Re: Lisbon has shared dissident info with repressive regimes for years

#77
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one about Austria also borders between plain false and gross misrepresentation of reality.

A list of deported dissidents for you: Tamaev Hasan - social activist from Gudermes Malik Tayipov - niece of Gen. Dudayev who was born in Europe, and never been outside of it, on a "terrorism" charge Daniel Mamaev - social activist who lived in Austria for most of his adult life Rasambek Isayev - journalist https://oe1.orf.at/artikel/324664/Tschetschene-abgeschoben-v... Murad Aslamkhanov - dissident, blogger https://…

It seems all of those were chechens? At least the ones you linked to were denied asylum seekers, one of them seemingly being convicted for illegal posession of firearms before getting returned. This is due to the anti immigrant stance of the government, it has nothing to do with aiding dictators. No idea who the others are, there is literally zero info on them. By that standard, everyone europe ever sent back to areas like the middle east falls into the same category. This is very different from spying on or handing over your own citizens to these regimes.
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