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Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

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Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#71

Post by asadotzler »

arihant wrote: post #67
asadotzler wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your critic is a bully and he comes into your workplace saying he'd like to physically maim you so you can't work any more and calls you names and think it's OK because he was, (in his own words, while he's verbally abusing you) "the second person after Stallman to ever write any GNU code" then I think you'd call him a bully, treat his attempts at participation as toxic, and kick him out of your workplace. You mig…

Sure I will. But if he writes me a letter letting me know that I suck and that I should rather die than writing buggy code making millions of lives miserable everyday, I'd be fine. He didn't throw stones at Mozilla labs, he filed and commented on a bug report. Its just text, not a man in their office. Virtual != Real. Its a mind over matter issue. And as Twain would agree..if you don't mind, it doesn't matter.

I'm arguing that it's just as toxic in a bug report as in the real world (maybe even worse considering it's not ephemeral in a bug report and many more people are likely to be exposed to it.)

And I'm arguing that what's reasonable in the physical world, kicking people out who are abusive, is reasonable in our online meeting places like Bugzilla.

I may not personally mind, but I'm not easily bullied. I've got a pretty thick skin too. But that should not be a requirement for participating in our project.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#72

Post by rickmb »

Although Mozilla would be quite right to ban someone if this kind of behavior becomes repetitive, I do find these kind of bug reports extremely useful, because they also convey the impact it has on the user. I can easily identify with his reaction to this "feature", and if my software annoys people like that, I would really want to know.

In fact, this kind of irritating software behavior is one of the reasons I ditched TB a long time ago. I'm sure that was considerable less useful than actually filing a mildly offensive bug report.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#73

Post by jerrya »

asadotzler wrote: post #21

It's my opinion that when you call a Thunderbird developer "some simian" and when you tell them to "Die die die die" and "Seriously, screw you" and you say things like "You know, every time I see a comment from [a specific Thunderbird developer] I just want to reach out through the intertubes and cut off his damned fingers to prevent him ever writing any code..." and when you're warned in a very civil tone with a cle…

Dear Asa,

You complain about Mlynarik being a bully, and yet here you are, with your comments on this one post at about 18 now, all saying what a horrible person Mlynarik is, and how you think no developer should have to put up with him, and yet, I don't believe you've disclosed your role, or why you have such a dog in this race....

I haven't read each of your posts, so maybe I missed where you told everyone what your role is in this.

Anyway, I do see Richard, a user, being blunt and creative and passionate in the bug reports he gives to the developers. But I do not see how a user bug report should actually offend or bother a developer.... At all.

And I do see you wandering around this post making sure everyone understands your point of view, that Richard's behavior is intolerable anywhere, and you can confidently say that since you are such a tolerant guy. I guess you're passionate too, but I think it's borderline speech policing and gate-keeping behaviors.

Boo hoo, a user calls the developers simians. I actually thought that was pretty funny, along with the imagery of Richard reaching through the computer.

I hadn't realized that the Firefox developers, developers of one of the utmost free speech tools of the 20th and 21st centuries were such wilted flowers that they could not handle the frankly amusing, sarcastic, accurate, precise, correct bug reports from one of their more knowledgeable users.

But now I know.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#74

Post by RyanMcGreal »

jerrya wrote: post #73
asadotzler wrote: post #21

It's my opinion that when you call a Thunderbird developer "some simian" and when you tell them to "Die die die die" and "Seriously, screw you" and you say things like "You know, every time I see a comment from [a specific Thunderbird developer] I just want to reach out through the intertubes and cut off his damned fingers to prevent him ever writing any code..." and when you're warned in a very civil tone with a cle…

Dear Asa, You complain about Mlynarik being a bully, and yet here you are, with your comments on this one post at about 18 now, all saying what a horrible person Mlynarik is, and how you think no developer should have to put up with him, and yet, I don't believe you've disclosed your role, or why you have such a dog in this race.... I haven't read each of your posts, so maybe I missed where you told everyone what you…

> all saying what a horrible person Mlynarik is

There's a big difference between saying someone is a "horrible person" and calling out specific incidents of inappropriate behaviour.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#75

Post by jerrya »

asadotzler wrote: post #46
jerrya wrote: post #3

Richard Mlynarik is a hacker with a deservedly excellent reputation. And sometimes he has a sharp tongue which in context can be both enjoyable and terrifying. But here's the important part for entrepreneurs: what percentage of users of mozilla products or any product bother to submit bug reports? What Richard is doing here is investing his time into making Mozilla better. I am always amazed at the projects and compa…

I am amazed at projects that allow toxic people to disrupt and mistreat other project members. I'm amazed when people defend bullies because they've got some kind of oldschool hacker credibility. Not having to listen to "a hacker with a deservedly excellent reputation" say he'd like to cut off your hands so you can't code any more is absolutely not a loss to the project. It's a proper and right kind of excision to re…

" I'm amazed when people defend bullies because they've got some kind of oldschool hacker credibility."

I actually said nothing like this, did I?

What I actually said, a) he's has a reputation as a very smart individual, and for good reason, and b) his bug report specifically was not bullying at all, but was precise, accurate, and passionate.

For what it's worth though, I don't find his calling a developer to be a simian to be offensive, I find it funny. I don't find his imagery of reaching through a monitor to cut off the fingers of someone to be offensive, or threatening, I find it amusing, and illustrative of his frustration at being ignored once more.

I find your behavior in this forum, of repeatedly bringing up these lame examples of why he should be banned to be offensive. And more offensive in light of how you have not explained who you are.

But the truth is, I use Chrome. And when I need an alternative browser, I turn to Opera or IE. I rarely use Firefox products anymore, because they are horrible. And I understand why they are horrible, it's because you guys are off in your own world and have no time or need to actually listen to your users, us guys that have been telling you for years of your bloat and your feature creep and your memory problems, and all the other crap you've tossed in there.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#76

Post by gojomo »

jasonlotito wrote: post #59
gojomo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer rehabilitation to exile, if at all possible.

Quip's like that don't help matters. I prefer peace to war, but it's meaningless. How do you propose rehabilitating someone who has demonstrated no desire to be rehabilitated within this context ? Also, is it really the job of the developers to fix the bugs in a user rather than focus on the bugs in the product the user is using?

The worst thus-far-linked example of Mlynarik's Bugzilla comments is from July 2010, after which one or more warnings were made. The June 2011 example that got him banned shows him as sarcastic and excessively dramatic, but he refrains from personal insults.

So the idea that he is rehabilitating, after warnings, is one interpretation of the linked reports.

Asa Dotzler has mentioned other quotes, but without dates/links for ontext. Perhaps they were in-person incidents? If so, that would change the calculus a lot (in favor of hair-trigger banning).

But part of a fair "next strike and you're gone" policy is being clear about what a 'strike' is. Was he warned not to use sarcasm, CAPS-YELLING, and excessive emotion? If so, he had fair warning. If instead he was warned not to be uncivil and insulting, then this latest comment didn't prove his incorrigibility.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#77

Post by tripzilch »

adw wrote: post #29
shii wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, he is being a little abrasive there, but I'd take it in stride and enjoy; this sort of thing is normal on the Internet. And besides, he's right. Why did they replace cmd-f like that?

Why should we accept unnecessarily abrasive behaviour as acceptable anywhere?

Because God is a crazy woman and his name is Eris.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#78

Post by soulinafishbowl »

asadotzler wrote: post #33
bdfh42 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct - it was a great bug report. Without the expression of frustration then the nature of the bug would not have been clear. Reports like this from my customers would be brilliant.

Would you like your customers saying "screw you" and "I want to cut off your hands so you can't program any more"? I wouldn't.

Absolutely! His was the pefect bug report. A chef cooks for his patrons, and a performer pleases his audience, just as a programmer codes for the user. With his report you have a passionately described, no holds barred look into what you are causing the user to feel when using the software. Don't let it hurt your feelings, just take it on the chin and recognize that in trying to make something better, you have inadvertently forgotten the primary objective: user experience. Oftentimes bug reports like this may just be a rant without relevant technical details, but the wonderful thing about this report, is that he gives you the best of both worlds: You have extremely insightful user experience along with the relevant technical details on how to address the issue. Be grateful, and wish more reports exactly like this.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#79

Post by thaumaturgy »

asadotzler wrote: post #21

It's my opinion that when you call a Thunderbird developer "some simian" and when you tell them to "Die die die die" and "Seriously, screw you" and you say things like "You know, every time I see a comment from [a specific Thunderbird developer] I just want to reach out through the intertubes and cut off his damned fingers to prevent him ever writing any code..." and when you're warned in a very civil tone with a cle…

OK, so I read this bug report. I think it says a lot that the focus from you (and, it looks like, the representative rest of Mozilla) is on the perceived "bullying" (it's not bullying) and the "incivility" (give me a break), and not on the actual problem being reported by the user.

You want us to consider context when talking about his most recent bug report being banned? OK, then we should also consider context when reading the "...every time I see a comment from [a specific Thunderbird developer]..." bug report too, because it's clear that this guy has had his objections and bug reports ignored a couple too many times.

Changing Command-F is broken ui. Period. You just don't do that. To an experienced, battle-weary developer, it's one of those blatantly obvious things that makes them want to scream at the sky.

Me? I would have just cussed at the software -- like I do every day at Firefox -- and then thrown my hands up, decided there wasn't much I could do because there isn't yet another option available, and gone on with my day. This guy is speaking for a ton of users who, like me, gave up the battle of communicating this kind of stuff over and over again.

I'm not writing this for you, though, because that would be a waste of my time. I'm writing it more as a caution to any other businesses that haven't yet fallen victim to this trap: listen to your customers, even when they're pissed off.

I wrote it here, too: http://robsheldon.com/ivorytower

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#80

Post by Robin_Message »

BasDirks wrote: post #24
masklinn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How on earth does that deserve a ban? That does not deserve a ban in and of itself. Repeated instances of that following warnings of unacceptable behavior, on the other hand, does. It would seem Richard here was in the second situation: > You've been warned repeatedly about the Bugzilla Etiquette rules, and you're still failing to respect them.

The "offender" could/should be more polite, but enforcing etiquette mustn't stifle progress. I don't mind the downvotes, but could you add why you disagree?

Commenting about why you should be downvoted might stifle progress (of your karma downwards.)
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