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The Ransomware Problem Is a Bitcoin Problem

lawfareblog.com

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Re: The Ransomware Problem Is a Bitcoin Problem

#71

Post by Dah00n »

mcphage wrote: post #51
blhack wrote: post #40

I think that what you're seeing is HNers, and techies in general not really understanding that there is a world that exists well outside of their bubble of technology. Bitcoin did not create the concept of ransom. It didn't even create the concept of ransom as a business model for organized crime. See for instance our neighbor to the south: https://www.vox.com/2018/5/11/17276638/mexico-kidnappings-cr... This is such…

> Should we ban shipping? Shipping is pretty useful, though. What are the other major uses for Bitcoin?

In the long run? Maybe destroying the petro dollar. One can dream.

Re: The Ransomware Problem Is a Bitcoin Problem

#72

Post by beloch »

blhack wrote: post #40

I think that what you're seeing is HNers, and techies in general not really understanding that there is a world that exists well outside of their bubble of technology. Bitcoin did not create the concept of ransom. It didn't even create the concept of ransom as a business model for organized crime. See for instance our neighbor to the south: https://www.vox.com/2018/5/11/17276638/mexico-kidnappings-cr... This is such…

Ordinary people use shipping and the internet every day. They do not use bitcoin.

This article points out that, the last time a similar wave of crime occurred, the way it was defeated was by targeting the banks where the money changes hands.

It is because cryptocurrencies do not currently function as usable currencies that the same trick could work again. If governments pass regulations making it illegal for financial institutions to process cryptocurrency transactions, companies/hackers will have no way to convert real money to and from bitcoin ransoms. Companies can't simply gather up bitcoin paid to them by their customers, because almost nobody uses bitcoin as an actual currency. The ransomers won't be able to spend their bitcoin on groceries and vodka because almost nobody uses bitcoin as an actual currency. Both parties need financial institutions to make the transaction work.

Cryptocurrencies need to achieve real-world, everyday, legal usefulness fast or they're going to be strangled in their cradle by this. If the cost is massive amounts of energy use and billions of dollars of criminal damage annually, the benefit has to be more than providing a shell-game for finance gamblers and purely hypothetical future benefits.

Re: The Ransomware Problem Is a Bitcoin Problem

#73

Post by cinquemb »

CincinnatiMan wrote: post #42
saurik wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

""" While we're at it, maybe those same people can defend the Internet, right? Clearly, this experiment in anyone in the world being able to nigh unto anonymously communicate with anyone else was a mistake... at best, every packet should be tracked back to some regulated endpoint that can be tracked in the real world. The Internet, after all, makes the dark web--and its myriad crimes, including ransomware, drug traff…

I think the argument would be that the internet, while enabling bad things, is a net-positive with its good outweighing its bad. Whereas the value provided by cryptocurrencies is not as clear.

> Whereas the value provided by cryptocurrencies is not as clear.

The problem is that there's a large group of people who don't rely upon it at all, and there's people on the fringes that where using crypto enables non speculative economic activity where the banking sector has ignored/hands tied for too long; and by design, people in the former group can do increasingly very little against those in the latter.

The people saying "convince me" don't matter to those already using it, whereas in the case of ransom w/ crypto, the opposite is becoming more and more true…

People expecting various conflicting laws/jurisdictions globally to catch up to this at scale are going to have a tough time.

The moral hazards deeply embedded in our centralized nation state based monetary systems (and the assumptions built off of them) are once again having to compete with private money in new forms.

Re: The Ransomware Problem Is a Bitcoin Problem

#74

Post by tptacek »

Dah00n wrote: post #61
tptacek wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence at all that computer science and information technology actually knows how to solve the underlying security problems without forcing untenable compromises on the economy. We can produce secure software, but only at a level of expense and time that would preclude most commercial software development.

That may be but that doesn't change that fact that the underlying problem isn't cryptocurrency. Lashing out at other technologies because of lack of accountability in software development won't solve anything. At best it will move it somewhere else but in the end the problem stil haven't been solved. Besides, software could absolutely be made much safer without destroying the economy. We all know that the systems tha…

The whole point of the article is that you could have said the same thing about Viagra spam, but financial system interventions did shut that down.

There is, again, no evidence that we know how to make commercially deployed software meaningfully safer at the scale we need to do it at to stop ransomware attacks from disrupting society.

Re: The Ransomware Problem Is a Bitcoin Problem

#75

Post by tptacek »

toxik wrote: post #55
tptacek wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have a huge mugging problem. We have muggings (I've been mugged), but they occur infrequently enough that society isn't disrupted. You can't say that about ransomware. Not only that, but we have done things to defang muggings; for instance, it's been made less lucrative (and more dangerous for the mugger) to steal a modern phone.

But that’s not what decides if cash is viable. If we had a huge mugging problem, we would call for better law enforcement, not less cash.

No, people generally carry much less cash now, and part of the reason why is that it's so easily stolen.

Re: The Ransomware Problem Is a Bitcoin Problem

#76

Post by quanticle »

tptacek wrote: post #45
saurik wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

""" While we're at it, maybe those same people can defend the Internet, right? Clearly, this experiment in anyone in the world being able to nigh unto anonymously communicate with anyone else was a mistake... at best, every packet should be tracked back to some regulated endpoint that can be tracked in the real world. The Internet, after all, makes the dark web--and its myriad crimes, including ransomware, drug traff…

You might say you're "banning Bitcoin", but what you're really doing is banning Bitcoin's linkages to the existing institutional financial system. That's a very tenable project.

I think it's more difficult than one imagines to ban Bitcoin's linkages to the existing institutional financial system. After all, it's not as if REvil or DarkSide are using Coinbase to trade their Bitcoin. If the United States shuts down all Bitcoin exchanges operating on its territory, but Russia does not, then does that have a meaningful impact on the usage of Bitcoin for cybercrime? It seems to me that all such a step would do is make the positive usages of Bitcoin more difficult while having only a marginal effect on the usage of Bitcoin for cybercrime.

Re: The Ransomware Problem Is a Bitcoin Problem

#77

Post by tptacek »

saurik wrote: post #58
emodendroket wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The obvious difference to me is that the Internet has a lot of benefits outweighing the negatives beyond just enabling people to do speculation.

What, pray tell, are those benefits that are so obvious to you, and why should they only apply to photos of your lunch and not money? Most of the more "banal" uses of the Internet would still work fine with a tightly regulated system that required you to sign up for services with an ID and have every packet signed and tracked. The reality is that many in the US believe we had an insurrection attempt in January due to…

The whole article is about why money is a distinctively important regulatory target.

Re: The Ransomware Problem Is a Bitcoin Problem

#78

Post by grumple »

px43 wrote: post #70
mcphage wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should we ban shipping? Shipping is pretty useful, though. What are the other major uses for Bitcoin?

Sending money over the internet. If you don't understand why that's an critical utility for billions of people on this planet, then you're not worth arguing with.

Sending money over the internet is faster and safer using methods that existed before bitcoin (sending via banks / paypal / venmo / cashapp / etc). Crypto does not enable this.

Re: The Ransomware Problem Is a Bitcoin Problem

#79

Post by thehappypm »

quanticle wrote: post #69
emodendroket wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the claim that cryptocurrency is providing a societal benefit comparable to the automobile then?

Not yet, but it might. Early cars were noisy, slow, finicky and far more polluting than cars today. They're only as useful as they are today because they were allowed to evolve for a hundred and twenty years. Banning Bitcoin because it's used in cybercrime is analogous to banning the Model T because it got used in a bank robbery.

It's much more akin to if a competitor to Ford made a car with a bank-robbing feature.

Re: The Ransomware Problem Is a Bitcoin Problem

#80

Post by danaris »

px43 wrote: post #60
mediaman wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make it illegal to transact crypto. That would devastate the price and ruin it as a currency. The network would still exist, but it'd be useless as a medium for criminal payments due to the low value.

That is exactly as dumb as trying to make the internet illegal. It would financially ruin any country who tried it and give a significant advantage to everyone else on the planet.

....That is an extraordinary claim, and thus requires extraordinary evidence.

There is no significant legitimate commerce taking place using cryptocurrency. By what mechanism would banning converting BTC to USD "financially ruin" the US?

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