Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US • Hacker News Board

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#71

Post by munk-a » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #13

jolux wrote: post #4

I applaud this accomplishment. I think there will be a push to manufacture more semiconductor-intensive products in the US over the next several years as tensions with China continue to heat up and Taiwan is left as a single point of failure. I know progress is already being made with TSMC building new fabs in the US. I will note that Purism do not say what their production capacity is, and that it would probably be…

There is also debate on if the US should invest in that. Political tensions with China are one factor. However remember there are limited resources so investing in this means something else can't be invested in. Really this should be a world wide concern: if China is so bad how can we build up someone more friendly - it need not be the US. Could be Germany, could be Kenya (I understand China is investing there)

I actually strongly disagree with the statement

> Political tensions with China are one factor.

Specifically - I think that, at the end of the day, the economic flow is the only thing that matters and all the other considerations are sort of moot. What the US offers to the world is a gigantic consumer market, and it's quite difficult to actually control a consumer market since any applications of force or restriction of goods flow ends up deteriorating the market faster than it yields control. If the US embargoed Chinese imports tomorrow the Chinese government would receive a lot of domestic pressure to take action but, logically, there isn't an action it can take overtly to actually reopen the US market - instead we'd see this war play out in propaganda within the US trying to force politicians to reverse the decision by causing mass discontent. And, honestly, it's likely that companies affected by any such embargo would just act independently of the Chinese government to those ends - so, essentially, the only real forces Chinese businesses would have to oppose an economic breakdown are their personally contained forces. I think, essentially, that the Chinese government would be impotent to deal with such a situation buuuut... that's just like my opinion man.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#72

Post by ludocode » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

WoodenChair wrote: post #47

ludocode wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the answers “yes”, if the demand is there. It's not a question of demand. A negligible number of customers care where their product is manufactured. They care only about price, which is why manufacturing moved overseas in the first place. What is needed to manufacture phones in the West is protectionism and mercantilism. Our governments would have to subsidize domestically manufactured products, require the…

> It's not a question of demand. A negligible number of customers care where their product is manufactured. They care only about price, which is why manufacturing moved overseas in the first place. Your first paragraph contradicts itself. Not enough customers demanding their product be made in USA is the very definition of a demand problem.

> Not enough customers demanding their product be made in USA is the very definition of a demand problem.

The context was Teslas. The parent comment suggested that Teslas can be manufactured in volume because there is sufficient demand. While true, the demand for Teslas is not due to the fact that they are manufactured in the US. Tesla buyers mostly don't care where they are manufactured; they just want a fast and stylish electric car. The demand is not for US-manufactured Teslas. It's just for Teslas.

I agree with you that demand specifically for domestic products does not exist, but this is obvious. Demand for domestic products is not really a thing in the first place because the place of manufacture is not a product differentiator for most consumers. There are very few ways to realistically control direct demand for domestic products; laws that force the government to buy domestic are about it. You have to create demand for domestic products indirectly by making them cheaper than the alternative because that's all that consumers really care about.

This is why it's pointless to talk about "customers demanding their product be made in USA". It's not a question of demand because the vast majority of consumers do not and will never care where a product is manufactured.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#73

Post by martin8412 » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 7:07 PM UTC

yumraj wrote: post #28

yifanlu wrote: post #23

Yeah it’s 2021 and Chinese manufactured are more reliable and higher quality than anything American made. As an anecdote I build PCBs for a hobby and I’ve purchased PCBs and chips from both cheap Chinese fabs and suppliers as well as Americans ones. The only issues I’ve ever had were with American ones (which were many times more expensive) and I’ve stopped using them completely. I would be curious if librem will eve…

> Also after the Snowden revelations, I laugh at the idea that American made products are somehow more “secure”. Be that may, but as a US person I’d rather have US intelligence snooping on me than a foreign hostile entity. There are no ifs and buts about it. For folks in other countries, I leave it to them if they are more comfortable with a democracy, with relatively good relations with most countries in the world,…

China is not communist, nor do I trust the US more than them. Both countries are countries I have no respect for.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#74

Post by bartvk » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 7:08 PM UTC

deeviant wrote: post #11

olah_1 wrote: post #2

This is really inspiring to see consumer electronics made in America. So many people say that “we lost the capability” to do such. $2000 isn’t a bad price in the grand scheme of things. But I will be waiting until the software / UI is snappier.

Ah, what is a "bad" price for an massively underwhelming piece of hardware, in your book, then?

Come on, the Purism people have put up a huge effort. You can't just casually the product "massively underwhelming" without stating your reasons for doing so.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#75

Post by lucian1900 » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 7:09 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #64

orhmeh09 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is complicity in abuse of populations suddenly a problem? The US imprisons more than China does, forces citizens to work through a yet-unresolved pandemic that disproportionately impacts already marginalized and abused segments of the population, and furnishes private companies with prison labor for $1 an hour when the prisoners are not being made to fight forest fires or being abused (or killed) by law enforceme…

> Why is complicity in abuse of populations suddenly a problem? It's always been a problem, but it's best to make whatever strides to resolve it that we can. > The US imprisons more than China does Sure, but it is not currently engaged in a genocide. Standards for due process are also stronger in the US than in China, and you don't get thrown in jail for criticizing the government either. The US prison system being b…

The US is the one with widely documented concentration camps on the border.

And last year showed us just how much due process is ignored and political prisoners persecuted, if previous history wasn’t enough.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#76

Post by martin8412 » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 7:09 PM UTC

SahAssar wrote: post #44

jonchang wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/ Scroll a little bit down and you'll see the country of origin for the parts. Most are of US origin.

Am I missing something or does that not say where the SoC/processor is made? TFA does not seem to say where the NXP CPU is made either. Or is that categorized under the "Electronics" category?

That answer would be Korea.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#77

Post by sokoloff » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

foobarian wrote: post #48

avs733 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another way to look at it is "this is what it costs to ALSO make something in the US" you aren't just paying to the difference in labor, you are paying for the difference in requirement, documentation, redundancy, small market segment, etc. It's like bolts for aircraft. I can buy the bolt for a couple cents at my local Ace. But to buy the certified one costs 10x+ because of the work involved in getting it certified.

I find binning fascinating when this topic comes up. You start with a pile of 1 cent parts with a 10% tolerance, go through it and measure each and every one, and you magically end up with bins of 1% tolerance parts that now cost a dollar. The parts didn't change at all! And yet merely the fact that they are sorted gives them so much more value.

Another interesting story is that in the 50s and 60s, light aircraft shared a lot of accessory parts with cars of the era.

Cessna used the same voltage regulator as Ford. Ford accepted statistical process inspection for their parts. Cessna required 100% parts inspection for the exact same part.

Solution: run the assembly line for the voltage regulators normally, do the greater of the number of inspections required by Ford or the volume required by Cessna. Ink all the inspected parts with an inspection stamp. Now, Ford can use any of the voltage regulators. Cessna can use any of the stamped regulators. Both companies get parts more cheaply than if the lines were separated.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#78

Post by lucian1900 » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

yumraj wrote: post #28

yifanlu wrote: post #23

Yeah it’s 2021 and Chinese manufactured are more reliable and higher quality than anything American made. As an anecdote I build PCBs for a hobby and I’ve purchased PCBs and chips from both cheap Chinese fabs and suppliers as well as Americans ones. The only issues I’ve ever had were with American ones (which were many times more expensive) and I’ve stopped using them completely. I would be curious if librem will eve…

> Also after the Snowden revelations, I laugh at the idea that American made products are somehow more “secure”. Be that may, but as a US person I’d rather have US intelligence snooping on me than a foreign hostile entity. There are no ifs and buts about it. For folks in other countries, I leave it to them if they are more comfortable with a democracy, with relatively good relations with most countries in the world,…

Which of the two countries has more invasions, coups and occupations in its history? Which one is still occupying several countries and has military bases in many others?

It’s the US the rest of us fear, with good reason.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#79

Post by martin8412 » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

jonchang wrote: post #15

ryukafalz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm missing it, but it doesn't seem obvious if the parts they're using were also manufactured in the US? Which, if they're not, makes sourcing them still an issue if global supply chains were to break down for example.

https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/ Scroll a little bit down and you'll see the country of origin for the parts. Most are of US origin.

Maybe you don't know, but Purism tends to publish misleading information.

Most of the stuff in that product listing is trivial stuff to produce. The PCB/PCBA entries can basically all be ignored, and all the ICs on those PCBs can basically be assumed to be made in China, except for the NXP i.MX8M which is made in Korea

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#80

Post by ludocode » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 7:16 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #45

ludocode wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the answers “yes”, if the demand is there. It's not a question of demand. A negligible number of customers care where their product is manufactured. They care only about price, which is why manufacturing moved overseas in the first place. What is needed to manufacture phones in the West is protectionism and mercantilism. Our governments would have to subsidize domestically manufactured products, require the…

> It's politically unpopular for the same reason action on climate change is unpopular: it makes everything more expensive. You've got this backwards. Both taking action on climate change and buying American are popular [1][2]. Furthermore I don't know of much evidence that suggests taking action on climate change will raise prices. But you are right about protectionism in that way. That's the biggest problem here. I…

Of course everyone wants the government to do something about climate change. They're not thinking about what they'll have to sacrifice in order to make it happen. Almost no one is willing to suffer even minor inconvenience in favor of stopping climate change.

Let's see the results of a poll that asks if people would be willing to take climate action that doubled the price of airline tickets, or that doubled the price of most fruits and vegetables in the supermarket. I would expect a very different result, yet this is what is necessary to offset the emissions in air travel and international shipping. (I pulled this "double" number out of a hat, but it seems to me to be far less ridiculous than your assumption that action on climate change won't affect prices.)

It's the same issue with domestic manufacturing. Of course all Americans want their products to be manufactured in America. But virtually no Americans are willing to pay a higher price for them. Stores long ago stopped bothering to stock American made products next to their cheaper foreign counterparts because no one bought them. What people say they want is irrelevant; what matters is what they actually buy.

> In the abstract I see no reason that global trade should breakdown if a significant majority of people in the world can agree about labor standards, human rights standards, etc.

If a majority of the world agreed on labor standards and excluded the rest from trade, there would be no need for protectionism. Manufacturing would be a level playing field so Americans could compete directly with foreign companies on price. Unfortunately this isn't the world today. It's not possible to compete in manufacturing with countries where laborers are paid under a dollar an hour, so as long as we have free trade with such countries our manufacturing will never be able to compete.