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Switching from Mailchimp to open-source Mailtrain and AWS SES

carlchenet.com

71–80 of 114 posts

Re: Switching from Mailchimp to open-source Mailtrain and AWS SES

#71

For most reasonable applications that is basically a great advertisement for mailchimp, Eg if you rolled your own solution you’d only save eur 500 a year before accounting for the build and maintenance of your solution.

We pay mailchimp closer to 2,462.74 EUR per year. At this point it is totally worth it.

Re: Switching from Mailchimp to open-source Mailtrain and AWS SES

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What GDPR fines are those, specifically?

Mail chimp stores it’s data in the us and German courts found that it breached GDPR because of US spy laws.

Wasn't that just the latest iteration of "EU pretends no other country in the world has similar national security laws to its own member states", under which multiple EU-US agreements on data sharing have already been struck down and technically any EU business probably can't use any US-based service ever if that involves sharing of personal data? Did this one get to the end of the process and result in a real fine or other penalty?

Re: Switching from Mailchimp to open-source Mailtrain and AWS SES

#73
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: I misread the grandparent post.

Not FUD there has been a court ruling on using mailchimp being a breach of GDPR.

Sorry, I completely misread your post. You're right. My point was actually closer to what you're saying.

Re: Switching from Mailchimp to open-source Mailtrain and AWS SES

#74
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An engineer should recognize what is worth their time. If setting this up takes more than 5hour a year of time to setup and maintain then it’s not worth it. You’ll be wasting money

Not eveyone earns 100€ an hour, especially in Europe. The newsletter has a French name ("Le courrier du Hacker"), and in France 45/50k€ a year is a good salary. That's around 14/15€ an hour. Which means ~33 hours a year of maintenance.

I think it is actually closer to ~16 hours a year assuming the lower end of the range you suggested, and dramatically less if this person makes more than that.

Most simply, I think the typical calculation is if there were 40 working hours per week (8 hours, Mon - Fri) then there are 2080 working hours per year, which is ~21.63 Euro (per hour, assuming 45k EUR) just in salary - other commenters pointed out an employer would have other costs, but lets try and keep it simple as was suggested.

But beyond simple, you don't work on public holidays and Europe tends to have 20-25 vacation days per year as well. That probably adds up to 35 days (280 hours) in France. Therefore the number of hours actually 'at work' is only going to be 1800 a year, so 45k EUR comes to 25EUR per hour.

I imagine this might work on AWS Free Tier but while SES supports ~62k emails per month as 'Always Free', any EC2 instance or network bandwidth is probably billable here. There's probably up to 100EUR a year in cost associated here?

So you have 400EUR of money Mailchimp charged for the service and will never be "apples to apples" because now you're responsible for initial setup and ongoing maintenance. Definitely seems simple in the blog post, but unmentioned was how you backup all the configuration and state, how do you monitor it, most of the features of Mailtrain (e.g. Click Stats) rely on the NodeJS application being operational so is this actually a load balancer, two instances, and the extra complexity of database replication, et al? It is also now on you to make sure it stays patched, isn't compromised, etc.

I imagine there are different deliverability promises with Mailchimp vs. Amazon SES and you might now have to do more managing of that through AWS interfaces?

All of the above needs to fit into ~16 hours a year if we're going to draw this comparison against what you'd make as a salaried engineer. All of the above is time that could have been spent on extra content for the newsletter, or improved content for it, other than this post obviously, or on audience building, on other professional development, or just about anything else.

I think the ROI of writing the article and making everyone debate this on the internet was pretty high, but the title feels like clickbait. This is a straight trade for saving a little money vs. a semi-significant personal time investment.

Re: Switching from Mailchimp to open-source Mailtrain and AWS SES

#75

For most reasonable applications that is basically a great advertisement for mailchimp, Eg if you rolled your own solution you’d only save eur 500 a year before accounting for the build and maintenance of your solution.

We pay mailchimp closer to 2,462.74 EUR per year. At this point it is totally worth it.

We also pay around 200USD/mo and are a small local business with some online presence for e-tutorials etc. They were cheap for a while but if you get over 15k contacts it's a crazy price if you are not a heavily monetised business and mostly just want to send newsletters not conversion funnel jank.

Re: Switching from Mailchimp to open-source Mailtrain and AWS SES

#76

I have seen far too many articles of these types. As someone who has sent billions of emails I can tell you the following. 1. SES is shit. 2. Value of mailchimp is not in its interface. It is in mail deliverability. Use at least sendgrid.

Can you elaborate on why SES is shit? I've been using it for about 6 months now to run a small newsletter and haven't experienced any issues with deliverability.

Re: Switching from Mailchimp to open-source Mailtrain and AWS SES

#77
Can anyone with experience compare Mailtrain / Mautic / others?

I did a quick Mautic setup on a DO droplet a while back. It felt a little like beta software, a lot of careful steps to get things working, some things didn't work, updates and some actions on a clean install gave me PHP errors, Amazon SES API wasn't built yet so sent super slow via SMTP only, etc. And it leaned way harder into marketing automation as I should've expected from the name (JS on page to track users then associate them if/when they sign up later). This was at least a year ago and they've had a major release since so might have fixed some of these but I'm still trying to save money for a small business who can't afford $200/mo for sporadic newsletters and welcome series with free stuff.

Re: Switching from Mailchimp to open-source Mailtrain and AWS SES

#78
post #74
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not eveyone earns 100€ an hour, especially in Europe. The newsletter has a French name ("Le courrier du Hacker"), and in France 45/50k€ a year is a good salary. That's around 14/15€ an hour. Which means ~33 hours a year of maintenance.

I think it is actually closer to ~16 hours a year assuming the lower end of the range you suggested, and dramatically less if this person makes more than that. Most simply, I think the typical calculation is if there were 40 working hours per week (8 hours, Mon - Fri) then there are 2080 working hours per year, which is ~21.63 Euro (per hour, assuming 45k EUR) just in salary - other commenters pointed out an employer…

Here are my calculations: a salary of 45k euros in France means you take home 2618€ a month (according to https://www.salaire-brut-en-net.fr/). A month is ~4.33 weeks, a week is 35 hours. 2618 / (35 * 4.33) gives me ~17.40, so I made a mistake with my initial calculation. Still, it's way less than your 25 euros per hour. Maybe you underestimate the difference between "brut" and "net" and then taxes, which are both pretty high in France.

500€ at 17.40€ an hour is 28.7 hours, 22.9 if we're taking your 400€ (I'll believe you on that, I don't know much about AWS pricing). I think that may be reasonable to take care of it. There's also a big problem: you can't directly transform hours of your life into money. If the author is not paid by the hour because he's a cadre, he had to work 218 days in the year, and that's it, working more hours won't make him directly earn more (more info here https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F19261?...). Finding freelance work to expand those 10 to 30 hours (to be very large) isn't going to be easy too. As an aside, if we take 218 days for our calculations, that comes up to ~20€ an hour if they work 8 hours days, and ~23€ an hour if they work 7 hours days.

I do agree that database replication seems like a big issue, and if that's the case maybe switching to RDS could be a good idea.

Anyway, I think the article is relatively good at demonstrating the two extremes, Mailchimp vs everything by hand. Everyone is free to take of that what they find interesting, even if it's "I'd rather pay for Mailchimp".

> I think the ROI of writing the article and making everyone debate this on the internet was pretty high, but the title feels like clickbait. This is a straight trade for saving a little money vs. a semi-significant personal time investment.

I do think that it should be "How I" instead of "How to", but on the other hand "save up x/year" already informs you that the author is trading their time for money. I don't think it's clickbait just because it wouldn't apply to your or other peoples situations. Especially if 500€ is a little money for you, you're not really the target of the article.

Re: Switching from Mailchimp to open-source Mailtrain and AWS SES

#79
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 500€ is 5 hours of labor Only if someone will pay you for those 5 hours. Otherwise may as well say they’re worth 37 starfish or 92 leprechauns.

It’s not possible to catch an even number of leprechauns. I mean, basic fact checking is what I expect from a HN commenter. This place is turning into Reddit.

> This place is turning into Reddit.

I’m trying as hard as I can.

Re: Switching from Mailchimp to open-source Mailtrain and AWS SES

#80
post #8

For most reasonable applications that is basically a great advertisement for mailchimp, Eg if you rolled your own solution you’d only save eur 500 a year before accounting for the build and maintenance of your solution.

I had the same reaction too. Why would I go though all this for 500 euro a year. Why doesn't OP deploy this as a service for 15$ a month ?

Dealing with the spammers and deliverability issues alone is enough to deter me, for one, from the business.
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