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Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

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Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#71

Post by wwweston »

avalys wrote: post #26
UncleOxidant wrote: post #5

As an Oregonian not living in one of those sparsely-populated counties that voted for secession, I wonder why the folks who want to be part of Idaho don't just vote with their feet and move there? There's no border wall keeping them in Oregon. These votes are just symbolic and won't get them to their Idaho paradise near as quickly as a U-Haul could.

Maybe they like their home, their community, and their neighborhood, but what they don’t like is having a bunch of people living in population centers far away who don’t share their values telling them how to live their lives?

> a bunch of people living in population centers far away

"Far away" being "within the same state"?

> "telling them how to live their lives"

Yes, tell us the horrifying tales of distinctive micromanagement the people of Eastern Oregon have to suffer from.

If you live in society featuring representative government and rule of law, no matter where you live you'll run into a situation where you won't be part of the plurality.

And yes, frequently, "population centers" are going to be where the majority of people live, which means in any state, you're going to have the same problem. Which means this complaint is essentially about the idea that certain minorities get that they should have the right to impose their values on the majority.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#72

Post by shaftoe »

mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

Do you notice that you've defined your own viewpoint as rational and supported by data and the viewpoint of others as "probably focused around emotions"?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#73

Post by Alupis »

fnord77 wrote: post #45
razster wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt Tesla city, more like Trump city.

Putin city would be more like it, since the whole split california movement gets pushed hard by russian trolls

California has some very diverse areas with very diverse people with very diverse needs.

I'm not necessarily in favor of splitting California up, but it does make sense to have several smaller states that can better care for the needs of their constituents vs. what we have today where two major cities tend to drive the politics and priorities of the entire state.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#74

Post by therealjumbo »

dunkinkong wrote: post #25
UncleOxidant wrote: post #5

As an Oregonian not living in one of those sparsely-populated counties that voted for secession, I wonder why the folks who want to be part of Idaho don't just vote with their feet and move there? There's no border wall keeping them in Oregon. These votes are just symbolic and won't get them to their Idaho paradise near as quickly as a U-Haul could.

For all the times you hear "if you don't like it, leave", it does rub me as rich that they would want to move the line instead of stepping over it. I'm not saying it's easy, but giddy up, how about some pioneering spirit?

What is the typical response to "if you don't like it leave"?

Why isn't "if you don't like it leave" a productive suggestion in pretty much any case?

Per the guidelines of this site, we are recommended to take the most charitable interpretation of the other commenter's post. Similarly, you could pay more heed to the more nuanced arguments of the other political side, and just ignore the non-productive arguments like "if you don't like it leave." Throwing that suggestion back over the wall, isn't going to lead to a productive conversation.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#75

Post by sonotathrowaway »

Frondo wrote: post #54
UncleOxidant wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is kind of a weird place. I recall that soon after we moved there one of my dad's colleagues explained the situation something like this: "You know about Appalachia, right? Well, it's like there was a part of the Oregon trail that went directly from Appalachia to Southern Oregon - this is Appalachia West." The KKK was really active in that area for a long time which seems weird for a place on the West Coast…

Oregon has a long history of encoding racism into law, from the Black Exclusion laws from its early history to sundown laws that lasted into the 20th century. Idaho, too -- the Aryan Nations had their headquarters in the Hayden Lake area for a long time, until the early 2000s if I remember. It's only in the big cities that you get a lot of a liberal/progressive presence, outside that you get anywhere from libertarian…

Neo-nazis and other racial separatists explicitly advocate for the pacific north west to be their home, as they consider it to be the furthest from Atlanta, which they consider to be majority black. The PNW is also home to Christian nationalist terrorists like Matt Shae, who advocate forced conversion and murder of non-Christian minorities.

Fun fact: Oregon arrests and prosecutes minorities more aggressively than every other state in the nation.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#76

Post by Ericson2314 »

marricks wrote: post #60

As an left Oregonian I think this would be a win-win. Oregon is an extremely liberal state in the valley but outside of metropolitan areas, obviously not. Our state legislature is regularly shut down and forced to cater to far right views. Like, these conservative congressman refuse to show up and literally shut it down so nothing gets done. Liberal congresspeople in general not willing to do anything besides chastis…

Yes I absolutely agree. An to anyone worried about the electoral college and senate, well, those are salvageably crap, and stuff like this will put on pressure for reform or at last "heighten the contradictions".

Even more simply, here's a wonderful grand bargain: DC statehood return for California, Oregon, and Washington boundary shifting. I would take that in a heartbeat.

(PR statehood could sweeten the deal, but leftism says PR ought to be independent, and plain non-ideological pro-democracy me says PR should have a binding statehood vs independent referendum that isn't subject to boycotts to determine what Puerto Ricans actually want.)

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#77

Post by bilbo0s »

jpttsn wrote: post #64
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

What if your assumption, that tax dollars go toward a greater good, is shown to be wrong? Let alone the difficulty of tracing it: assume it’s possible to show where every tax dollar went. Would you still favor this trnsparency if it’s shown to sometimes benefit individual politicians at the expense of their would be constituents? Just hypothetically?

Would you still favor this trnsparency [sp] if it’s shown to sometimes benefit individual politicians at the expense of their would be constituents?

Just Devil's Advocate, but wouldn't that be the best outcome? If it showed to which company every tax dollar went. Who the principals are in those companies. And the connections those principals have to politicians allocating the dollars?

Especially if it showed this for every dollar, I'm finding it hard to see a downside. Am I missing something?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#79

Post by marricks »

mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

Having good information accessibly presented is helpful but when local news outlets are owned by Sinclair Media[1] and Fox News is the most watched cable outlet for the conservatives that live there the facts really don't matter.

We can bend over backwards to explain how helpful the valley is to them but it's going to fall on ears which don't want to listen.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be provided for, they 100% should, just them actually leaving will do more to show them the inefficiencies of a conservative super state.

Short of that the most effective way to change the information disconnect is actually address the source of the issue: media.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_Broadcast_Group#Polit...

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#80

Post by redleggedfrog »

Sour grapes. It the opposite side of the liberals threatening to move to Canada when W or King Oompa Loompa got elected. Just another example of American polarization and unwillingness to see the other guys point of view. They'll keep f*cking up the country with their stubbornness until they get old and die, which fortunately, is fairly near term for the right wingers. Sadly, they'll be replaced by a legion of young people doing the same thing for the left.
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