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Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

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Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#71

Post by myk9001 »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #3

Worth watching. But if you don’t... [Linux desktop sucks because application writers don’t make binaries that “just work”, pushing the user to always just have to recompile for their system, they try and address this in the kernel by not breaking things, but the distributions to and screw it all up, because breaking is fine so long as it’s “improving”] Tons of contrary points I’m sure, but duh. It’s really nice to be…

>> It’s really nice to be able to run Windows 3.1 code on a Windows Server 2019

You can also run the same version of a newest app on Windows 7 and Windows 10. At least, you could back when 7 was still supported, and you probably still can, but I didn't check.

Try installing a package targeting Ubuntu 21.04 on Ubuntu 20.04 LTS? :) (Replace Ubuntu with a distro of your choince in the previous sentence.)

For all its flaws -- and it has many -- Windows is a platform while a Linux distro is a ball of tightly-coupled packages.

>> I just want tools that immediately work.

Totally agree with you here.

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#72

Post by ginko »

cl0ckt0wer wrote: post #30
tachyonbeam wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I switched to Linux around the same time as you. Before that I was a Windows user from 1997 until ~2008. In the late 1990s and early 2000s people just accepted that Windows crashing everyday was a normal feature of that software, and they blamed every crash on user error, eg: "your drivers are bad", "you're running buggy software", etc. My Windows 98 install couldn't run for more than ~4 hours without crashing, it wa…

because printer/scanners don't work with the included software, and linux has a reputation.

I have an old Canon scanner that doesn't work on Windows because Canon never released a driver for anything after Windows XP. Works like a charm on Linux though.

Same experience with an old Nikon Super CoolScan negative scanner I recently bought used. It came with a Firewire PCI card. I installed the card, plugged in the scanner and it just worked.

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#73

Post by formerly_proven »

alkonaut wrote: post #64
formerly_proven wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On Android/iOS/macOS/Windows, I can have the latest 3rd party software without having to deal with intrusive updates to the OS infrastructure all the time. That's not really true. The .NET runtime isn't redistributable, and so has to be installed on the host OS, which usually works but not always (and pre-Windows 10, newer versions of .NET required a bunch of KBs, which meant that Windows Update was actually workin…

In what way is the runtime not redistributable? The old one “.NET Framework” is an OS component but has enough compat that you can always upgrade it. The newer one (net5+) is typically fully bundled with each app so no sharing. MSVC also went this way - you bundle them rather than take a dependency on a system wide runtime. These two (.NET and c++ runtimes) were basically the last shared libs on windows, and it’s now…

You are right, but there are still a lot of applications reliant on the "old ways".

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#74

Post by pjmlp »

worble wrote: post #60
pjmlp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange, because I can do it, https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/windows https://chocolatey.org/

The fact that people just listed 4 competing tools shows exactly why this is a problem: 2 of them are essentially community run, and could theoretically at any time be taken over by a hostile (or even just an incompetant) entity and be used to distribute malware. Not that this couldn't happen through an official channel, but it's certainly far less likely. Since the software distribution is not even, I currently have…

RPM Red-Hat, RPM SuSE, deb, tar balls, snap, flatpak, nix, ....

Yeah, thankfully it doesn't happen on GNU/Linux.

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#75

Post by crossroadsguy »

tomrod wrote: post #12

My family and I have used Linux desktops since 2008, when Windows Vista failed to run full screen video with BSOD. There was a learning curve for a few months, but I've never regretted the shift and it has made for significant contributions to my career. YMMV.

I’m looking for a laptop. I can’t find any good laptop with 16-32GB RAM at a non-Apple price. Also they all have windows preinstalled.

Defeats the purpose. That’s how it is.

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#76

Post by Decabytes »

I'm going to vent a bit about this. My perspective is as someone who was a Windows user who moved to Linux 6 years ago after getting fed up with Microsoft.

I love the package managers on Linux distros. They are amazing. I feel physical pain whenever I have to jump through hoops to get software up and running outside of a package manager. That being said, I do a lot of hobby work on a Raspberry Pi 4. Not every package is built for arm64. Packages break, have issues with their dependencies, or fail cryptically for me. Building software from source for programs that do run on linux systems can be hit or miss. I understand I chose this with my specific platform of choice, and I have accepted this. But if I can support a solution that will make my life easier I will.

It's 2021 and we have Flatpak, Snap, and AppImage, and it's super frustrating. None of these tools solve the problem entirely and they all come with their own sets of drawbacks. That's okay it doesn't have to be perfect. But there are people who hate the entire concept of using these tools and will crap all over them every time they come up. They have valid criticism don't get me wrong, but in my opinion doing something and shipping it is better than doing nothing at all. I would love to see the solution to Snap, Flatpak and AppImage by I've yet to see anything from their biggest proponents. I just can't be bothered anymore wasting my energy listening to people who aren't actively trying to find solutions. If you are reading this and are working on a solution, I appreciate you.

So which to choose? I think based on Canonical's past and present behavior Snaps just have too much baggage for most people in the Linux community. This sucks as you have software packaged in Snaps from Microsoft, Nvidia, etc that aren't available as a Flatpak or AppImage.

AppImage has the blessing of Linus Torvalds, but if you say that aloud then you will have people say "So what?" as if Linus Torvalds is some just some guy. For better or for worse it means something when he supports things, and he does provide his software as an AppImage so take that for what you will.

Then there is Flatpak. If you look at Flatkill.org then the tool is just a pile of lies and security holes. With that being said my money is on either AppImage or Flatpak

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#77

Post by ldiracdelta »

pjmlp wrote: post #27
that_guy_iain wrote: post #21

The real issue, macos has one distribution, Windows has one distribution, Linux has so many I doubt anyone really keeps track. The issue with Linux is they’re working in fragments instead of as one. The problem is oss not the operating system but the culture it was developed in.

In the mid-90's, I had hope that GNU/Linux would eventually evolve into either GNOME or KDE as the main desktop environment with their frameworks filling the same role as Kits in OS X, BeOS, WinAPI. Instead, it is not only the distributions, the whole desktop stacks keep being re-invented way more that what Apple or Microsoft have done thus far. Then there are the whole set of GNOME and KDE forks from those not happy…

I don't care about window transitions and compiz fusion or anything flashy about my window manager anymore. Xfce. Happy camper since 2015 as my main dev environment. Just run my programs please and provide some easy tools to position multiple windows.

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#78

Post by tristan957 »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #75
tomrod wrote: post #12

My family and I have used Linux desktops since 2008, when Windows Vista failed to run full screen video with BSOD. There was a learning curve for a few months, but I've never regretted the shift and it has made for significant contributions to my career. YMMV.

I’m looking for a laptop. I can’t find any good laptop with 16-32GB RAM at a non-Apple price. Also they all have windows preinstalled. Defeats the purpose. That’s how it is.

Refurbished Lenovo Thinkpads on eBay or Amazon is what I've gone with for my past two machines. Not disappointed at all. Quality builds for quality prices.

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#79

Post by ghaff »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #75
tomrod wrote: post #12

My family and I have used Linux desktops since 2008, when Windows Vista failed to run full screen video with BSOD. There was a learning curve for a few months, but I've never regretted the shift and it has made for significant contributions to my career. YMMV.

I’m looking for a laptop. I can’t find any good laptop with 16-32GB RAM at a non-Apple price. Also they all have windows preinstalled. Defeats the purpose. That’s how it is.

There are Lenovo Thinkpad Linux configurations up to 16GB but they'll be in the same price range as MacBooks.

Re: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks (2014)

#80

Post by tristan957 »

Decabytes wrote: post #76

I'm going to vent a bit about this. My perspective is as someone who was a Windows user who moved to Linux 6 years ago after getting fed up with Microsoft. I love the package managers on Linux distros. They are amazing. I feel physical pain whenever I have to jump through hoops to get software up and running outside of a package manager. That being said, I do a lot of hobby work on a Raspberry Pi 4. Not every package…

Flatkill.org is full of lies and deception. Many sources on the internet explaining why. It's just FUD at this point.
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